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All dwarves have beards

133 (41.7%)

Males bearded; females beardless (default setting)

163 (51.1%)

Females bearded; males beardless

14 (4.4%)

All dwarves beardless (horrors!)

9 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 319

[NW_Kohaku]

Except they ARE irrelevant.  That's what I've been saying in as many ways as I know how.  I'll just quote this again, because it's far more direct than I was trying to be:

Tolkien has already been a significant source of inspiration for Dwarf Fortress. To deny its relevance is silly. A significant portion of Dwarf Fortress is derivative of Tolkien (and by transitivity, derivative of Germanic mythology, and so forth.)
The point I'm making is that bearded dwarf-women are not just some throw-away idea originating from a random, less-significant source

Since I'm obviously having trouble with letting myself wander away on distractions, I'm going to just make this the only part of my post.  Once again, I will quote this because it is as direct as can be:

This argument is pointless.
By default, dwarf ladies have no beards. This is how Toady envisions them. DF is his creation, so his is the only opinion that really counts. This is what the "DF cannon" is.
But, he also made it moddable so folks who want bearded ladies can have them, because he wants the game to be customizable.

What someone else wrote about dwarves in a completely different setting is irrelevant to Dwarf Fortress. For every instance of bearded dwarf ladies in other fiction, an instance of non-bearded dwarf ladies can equally be pointed out. There is no "right" here. There is only what each individual author decided about his or her own personal version of a fictional creature.

Some people just like arguing.

Tolkien is irrelevant. 

Dwarves can be in any given fantasy whatever the author of that fantasy wants them to be. 

It doesn't matter how important one author or another is, if you state you are changing the rules for one fantasy or another, you can do that.

[Lord Shonus]

OK. The names got confused. Either way, especially with Tolkien,  the fact is you are reading into some very ambiguous writing, and saying females have beards. For Tolkien, did you ever wonder WHY the piece of writing you quoted wasn't in any of J.R.R.'s published writings?

Most of what Tolkien wrote was not published in his lifetime. This includes everything in the Silmarillion. It's still considered canon. If you have a problem with the conclusion that his dwarves are all bearded, take it up with the hardcore Tolkien fans.

There are two categories of Tolkien's writings that were not published his his lifetime. Things he didn't finish, and things he threw away. Everything in The History of Middle Earth is based on the latter category, as the entire reason Christopher Tolkien published that series was to show how the stories evolved. In many cases, the text presented was recovered from over-written pencil marks, where JRR had erased a phrase or paragraph and inserted a new one. The sole unambiguous reference to bearded dwarf women appeared in just such a section.

[Africa]

Guys, if you're going to argue about dwarf beards, keep it self-consciously ridiculous, such as applying concepts from evolutionary biology to creatures that we have no evolutionary information on. Otherwise you end up just calling the other person a pervert

[breadbocks]

Guys, if you're going to argue about dwarf beards, keep it self-consciously ridiculous, such as applying concepts from evolutionary biology to creatures that we have no evolutionary information on. Otherwise you end up just calling the other person a pervert

There is no pervert calling here, we (on the beardless females' side) are trying to prevent some form of untruthfulness which is the only thing featured in the bearded females' side's arguments.

[Africa]

Well, there were a bunch of accusations of either trying to sexualize non-humans, or else of twisted Freudian explanations. And then a bunch of tvtropes links. Guys, don't throw around tvtropes links like they're some kind of toy. That's serious business.

[NW_Kohaku]

And then a bunch of tvtropes links. Guys, don't throw around tvtropes links like they're some kind of toy. That's serious business.

Yeah, guys, it's Serious Business!  TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life!

[Noble Digger]

How is it that dwarves waddle around in tunnels carved out of raw cinnabar, orthoclase, and a plethora of other toxic minerals? Simple. Dwarves have a second liver in their chin which extrudes mineral fibers, thus ridding the body of heavy metal toxins. For the sake of argument, let's call this material "asbeardstos". Nonflammable, harder than orichalcum, fine as gossamer and possessing its own fey sentience, the dwarven beard serves a great many purposes. It is a heatsink, cutting tool, defensive weapon, air filtration system, and a powerful, ablative emetic in the case of dealing with ingested poisons.

I still prefer little girl dwarves though. Having that L2 dwarf bear down on you with a battle axe is no less terrifying than having the bearded mother come after you, is it?

[Deteramot]

The be all and end all of this argument is this: It's your choice, your opinion, whatever the hell you want to do. I am not saying that you must have all dwarfs bearded. I said that I, let me stress that, I believe all dwarfs should be bearded. I cited my reasons for that belief. That was the point of this thread, to find out who does what with their dwarfs.

Also, NW: My comment about female dwarfs having higher amounts of body fat in their chests was not pseudo-Freudian or chauvinistic or anything else. It's a comment about humanoid dimorphism. Generally speaking, with some unfortunate exceptions, fit males have more body fat around their middle than in their upper chest. Fit females have more body fat in the upper chest than males do, with the majority of their body fat stored in their thighs, buttocks and hips. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_shape#Fat_distribution (Warning: Line art nudity and a picture of Michelangelo's David on that page. May be NSFW.)) Why I failed to mention the increased fat to the lower body is a mix of failure to research before just now and because I figure Dwarfs have less lower body than upper body. The general belief is that dwarfs, while shorter than humans, are roughly the same density, which means a fit dwarf will have more mass. Thus, to people who are used to looking at human females, which happen to be nearly 5'6" on average, a dwarf will probably seem more well endowed.

Anyway, my point is, and remains, that I believe all dwarfs should have beards.

[Christes]

Well, there were a bunch of accusations of either trying to sexualize non-humans, or else of twisted Freudian explanations. And then a bunch of tvtropes links. Guys, don't throw around tvtropes links like they're some kind of toy. That's serious business.

TVTropes doesn't have that effect on me anymore =/

[Lightman]

I agree with Man In Zero G and NW_Kohaku. Any argument about this is pointless. A person is welcome to imagine fiction in any way they want, irrespective of reality or any work (including books and games).

Gathering opinions for fun, I think, is interesting - seeing what people choose and reading different views and ideas - but not establishing 'facts' or trying to create a definition of what should be. DF is what it is.

I voted for the current default.

[Africa]

I think we were always all agreed that any argument is pointless...it was supposed to just be for shits and giggles

[Stove]

Since I'm obviously having trouble with letting myself wander away on distractions, I'm going to just make this the only part of my post.  Once again, I will quote this because it is as direct as can be:

This argument is pointless.
By default, dwarf ladies have no beards. This is how Toady envisions them. DF is his creation, so his is the only opinion that really counts. This is what the "DF cannon" is.
But, he also made it moddable so folks who want bearded ladies can have them, because he wants the game to be customizable.

What someone else wrote about dwarves in a completely different setting is irrelevant to Dwarf Fortress. For every instance of bearded dwarf ladies in other fiction, an instance of non-bearded dwarf ladies can equally be pointed out. There is no "right" here. There is only what each individual author decided about his or her own personal version of a fictional creature.

Some people just like arguing.

Tolkien is irrelevant. 

Dwarves can be in any given fantasy whatever the author of that fantasy wants them to be. 

It doesn't matter how important one author or another is, if you state you are changing the rules for one fantasy or another, you can do that.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Dwarf Fortress is intended to be a fantasy world simulator - a simulator of a genre largely derived from Tolkien. Hell, if Toady wants to make dwarves into 10-foot fall hairless green martians who fly around in the clouds, that's up to his creative vision. Never mind the fact that it would make for a pretty lame fantasy simulator. Toady is the Pope, and he is infallible! Everyone else's opinions are irrelevent!

You focus on this one minor point that isn't even crucial to my position as a whole. Why is that? I mean, I'm just saying "here's this idea Tolkien came up with - he's been a pretty significant influence on Dwarf Fortress, after all."

Whether Tolkien came up with this idea or not is not crucial, because it's a standard fantasy element. The idea of bearded women is a standard stereotype of fantasy dwarves, just like their industriousness and love of alcohol. And it's a source of entertainment, just like their industriousness and love of alcohol. To omit it is just unfortunate.

[breadbocks]

Since I'm obviously having trouble with letting myself wander away on distractions, I'm going to just make this the only part of my post.  Once again, I will quote this because it is as direct as can be:

This argument is pointless.
By default, dwarf ladies have no beards. This is how Toady envisions them. DF is his creation, so his is the only opinion that really counts. This is what the "DF cannon" is.
But, he also made it moddable so folks who want bearded ladies can have them, because he wants the game to be customizable.

What someone else wrote about dwarves in a completely different setting is irrelevant to Dwarf Fortress. For every instance of bearded dwarf ladies in other fiction, an instance of non-bearded dwarf ladies can equally be pointed out. There is no "right" here. There is only what each individual author decided about his or her own personal version of a fictional creature.

Some people just like arguing.

Tolkien is irrelevant. 

Dwarves can be in any given fantasy whatever the author of that fantasy wants them to be. 

It doesn't matter how important one author or another is, if you state you are changing the rules for one fantasy or another, you can do that.

Sure, let's just ignore the fact that Dwarf Fortress is intended to be a fantasy world simulator - a simulator of a genre largely derived from Tolkien. Hell, if Toady wants to make dwarves into 10-foot fall hairless green martians who fly around in the clouds, that's up to his creative vision. Never mind the fact that it would make for a pretty lame fantasy simulator. Toady is the Pope, and he is infallible! Everyone else's opinions are irrelevent!

Have your own thoughts, but don't insult Toady as part of your argument. Also, Toady's goal isn't for a fantasy sim, it is for a general life simulator. Actually know what you're talking about first.

You focus on this one minor point that isn't even crucial to my position as a whole. Why is that? I mean, I'm just saying "here's this idea Tolkien came up with - he's been a pretty significant influence on Dwarf Fortress, after all."

Quit trying to distract us. We are fight a war of evidence on multiple points, while you are fighting a battle of flaming on one point. Anyways, Tolkien may have played an important part in fantasy, but he isn't all there is.

Whether Tolkien came up with this idea or not is not crucial, because it's a standard fantasy element. The idea of bearded women is a standard stereotype of fantasy dwarves, just like their industriousness and love of alcohol. And it's a source of entertainment, just like their industriousness and love of alcohol. To omit it is just unfortunate.

No. Beardless wodwarfs are the common. See WoW. That is the most influential fantasy game to date. There is no stereotype for Dwarfs. That is what is so great about them. They're a clean slate.

[Thundrim]

I guess Dwarves gets less uniform when you put them in a popular MMO that have stol.. borrowed all their ideas from other games, which in turn took their stuff from some P&P RPG's and some literature, and perhaps movies, which probably was based on literature at any rate. Which in turn leads us back to some bottleneck places of *influential* literature.

Late influences can sadly never be placed before early influences, unless the past is properly forgotten, and all evidence is buried, so nobody can remember how it all started. But alas, no Dark Age is upon us yet. Maybe in 2012, my Maya calendar calculator don't seem to stop though. Had expected something fun to happen at the end of time. But no. It just goes on and on. Those guys sure liked their decimals though.

---   

[kaijyuu]

I've never imagined them to have beards, but it wouldn't bother me if they did.