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All dwarves have beards

133 (41.7%)

Males bearded; females beardless (default setting)

163 (51.1%)

Females bearded; males beardless

14 (4.4%)

All dwarves beardless (horrors!)

9 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 319

[NW_Kohaku]

With anonymous posting, however, the "mob" merely needs to be a quick typist with a fast connection, at least until the forced meme does get established.

[breadbocks]

Meh. None of this makes too much sense to me. I don't go to 4chan, or any *chan. All in all, I don't get what or where Stove is referencing with the "I've made many points" and the "It is generally accepted that female dwarfs have beards". I've yet to see any non-jocular usage of them in fantasy. Tolkien, which has been pointed out often, was gynophobic, and never discussed female dwarfs. What you quoted was J.R.R.'s son being a bastard trying to get more money by finding writing that was SCRATCHED OUT. OK? And Diskworld's females was there as a joke.

NW_Kohaku, I believe the word you need to describe him properly is blackwhite. The first usage listed. I suppose doublethink as a whole applies here.

[tps12]

To me, Dwarven beards are like penises. Male dwarves like to show theirs off, brag, and all that, but if you see a girl with one, it's disturbing.

Not sure showing off one's penis is considered normal behavior by most people.

[breadbocks]

For dwarfs who  live in nudist forts, it's normal, and the same for forts that run out of socks.

[Karnewarrior]

To me, Dwarven beards are like penises. Male dwarves like to show theirs off, brag, and all that, but if you see a girl with one, it's disturbing.

Not sure showing off one's penis is considered normal behavior by most people.

Not physically, I meant like how one middle schooler will go up to anothe middle schooler and say his penis is 17 feet long, for no reason. Exept for dwaves, they have to prove it. By actually having a beard that big. I guess it's just bragging, after all.

[Stove]

Well, that's clearly asinine, and not what anybody's saying. DF is a fantasy world simulator, yes. Derived largely from Tolkien, no. Fact of the matter is, Toady has always said he draws his inspiration from mythology and folklore before any modern fantasy.

When has he said this? Even if he has said it, is obviously isn't true. The worlds depicted in Dwarf Fortress are blatantly post-Tolkien. To deny this is silly.

But you seem to have largely missed the point of my post: He made the game moddable to respect the creative vision of the players, so you want bearded dwarf ladies, you got em, just add two brackets to the raws.

To cite the current state of the game is irrelevent, really, since as I previously mentioned, it appears that Toady is planning to make it so that both cases will be true, dependent on the breed of dwarf (when such genetics are implemented)

That's because it's really the only support you've given to your original point.

No, it isn't. It's just the only thing anyone has tried to dispute from my posts. (Well, until your response here.)

You keep saying that. Thing is, you haven't backed it up.

That's because it's COMMON TAFFING KNOWLEDGE. The fact that this thread exists is support enough.

YET. There are no gender roles in almost any society in DF yet

which you contradict here:

The first run test was the elves - have you noticed that their war-leaders are (supposed to be) all women, all the time? It's true.

Toady has, as far as I know, not given any indication that there will be gender roles in Dwarven society, and I hope it stays that way, because as a feminist, I find it interesting.

Says who? Certainly not the game. That's all fan-fiction and forum memes. And yes, this too will be changing as the game is more developed. After all shaving is suggested in the Crime and Punishment Arc for minor crimes.

That very suggestion supports my assertion that beards are generally accepted to be a source of pride for Dwarves.

What? I'm sorry, but that is just even worse logic. Just because women don't grow beards, they have to be second-class citizens just because the men are proud of theirs?

A physiological difference as significant as a beard, if it's a point of pride, would indeed both enforce and be enforced by social class.

You just hand-waved it away. In unmodded DF, beards currently have no cultural significance, and nobody's proud of them. You said it yourself. But somebody else says "Yeah, that's how it is" and you're just dismissing it altogether as "silly".

Beards being a point of pride in Dwarven society is just another common stereotype of Dwarves. They don't have any significance in DF at the moment because DF hasn't reached the level of complexity for it to even be possible.

More hand-waving. Again with the "silly". Seems anyone who disagrees with you is "silly".

That's 'cause y'all are silly. Retconning stereotypical Dwarven standards because you're squicked out by bearded women? Silly! Silly silly silly.

Yes, let's abandon actual logic.  Not to mention the fact that in DF Toady has gone to great lengths to make things as scientificly accurate as possible, so let's throw "scientific rigour" out the window too in favor of philosophy, that makes perfect sense.

What, philosophy isn't logical?
Dwarf Fortress has elves, dwarves, demons, dragons, and cave swallowmen. It isn't exactly science fiction.

So, throwing out all reasonable discussion, you give the only actual support to your bearded lady stance at this point.

Wait, earlier you said the only support I gave to my position was the Tolkien thing. Make up your mind! Don't be silly!

You're talking about a stereotype here. And if you just bow to stereotypes, then frankly you are a lazy writer.

I'm not a writer (at least, not a fantasy writer). There's nothing wrong with stereotypes when it comes to simulations of fantasy. Proprietary versions of dwarves can stick to specific works of fiction (zB., Dwemer from Elder Scrolls)

Also, regarding Satyrs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 That's exactly how they work. In Greek myth they are in fact all male, and they reproduce by mating with the Nymphs. The concept of female satyr is a modern invention. Sorry.

I am fully aware of this! I had considered mentioning it.

And there it is. Your only real support for the idea of bearded Dwarf ladies.

Wait you're backpedaling again what

and the third is "Bearded ladies are humourous". Which you have no problem with. You actually agree that the idea of bearded Dwarf women is goofy, a leading reason people say it should not be so.

If you think the humourousness of it is a point against it, then you're taking Dwarves far too seriously!




my goodness this goes on forever


All I'm doing is clarifying and repeating myself. It seems like the discussion will just continue to become ever-expanding permutations of the same points worded in increasingly many different ways on both sides, with diminishing returns of entertainment.
Anyways, with regards to the future of DF, it's already resolved (if I've interpreted Toady's intentions correctly) that both cases will be true depending on genetics.
Thanks for acknowledging my earlier non-Tolkien-related points.

I also think Toady should switch the beard defaults every time he releases a new version, just to keep people on their toes.

I think that would be hilarious, actually. It might be a better compromise than the genetic solution.

[Nainemid]

To me a dwarf without a beard is akin to a human without a head.

So I let both genders have beards in my game.

[Zalminen]

I love Discworld series but in my games female dwarves never have beards.

[Shade-o]

Human males have beards and moustaches, and they have been a source of pride for all of recorded history. They have reached great length, been decorated with everything from silk to gold, trimmed by razors and left wild and bushy. Worn by kings, peasants, artisans and criminals.

However, the amount of bearded women is extremely low for some reason.

[Nikov]

Beardless dwarf-women here. I figure they grow their hair something awesome instead.

[ouroborus]

I prefer Discworld's version of female dwarves.

[KFK]

Not only are my dwarf females beardless, I've adjusted their appearance modifier to make them more like this,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Josephus]

Not only are my dwarf females beardless, I've adjusted their appearance modifier to make them more like this,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

HAR! You made me laugh.

Can you post your raws? I've been trying to get my wood-elven race to look more elfin in description.

[KFK]

Just make sure your HEIGHT modifiers are higher than your BROADNESS modifiers.

[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]

[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:10:20:30:35:40:45:50]

It's not perfect, you'll get descriptions like "Tall and thin and fat". Still trying to figure that one out. I also removed entries for ear lobes, splayed out ears, and head length/broadness because I was sick of seeing "Her somewhat *this* is somewhat *that*".

[Shade-o]

Maybe you should just play elves? That shouldn't exclude you from any Dwarven activities though. Mirkwood elves lived in an underground fortress, appreciated booze, and weren't afraid to kick some goblin anatomy. They also had an unhealthy appreciation for treasure.