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Author Topic: Related damage  (Read 2104 times)

thijser

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Related damage
« on: July 19, 2010, 02:16:03 pm »

The idea is simple: if a part is damaged let the parts that are normally nearby it get damaged aswell.
In order to do this the game would first have to esablish what parts are close nearby. This could be done by making a basic setup that can be accesed in the raws aswell as slight modifications. This would allow a few templates to be used for all creatures. Another variable could then esablish how much damage is done
for example:

template:humanoid
if eyelid is damaged pierce 90% eye is damaged 90% force carrying.
if eyelid is damaged blunt 90% eye is damaged 70% force carrying.
if brain is damaged pierce 99% skull is damaged 100% force carrying.

ext.

dwarf:
humanoid template
if liver is damaged+20%prob heart is damaged+90% force carrying.

This could make combat more realistic without much (relative to it's effect) work make the combat system in dwarf fortress a lot more realistic
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 07:27:55 pm »

Honestly, a part of me doesn't really want these body part raws/calculations even more muddled than they already are.

However, that said, a connection/relative location chart would probably be nice. 

With THAT said, I don't think I want a direct percentage chance that damaging the liver would also damage the heart.  I would rather that were guaged by a general "impact size" function, especially since we already have a "size" variable for weapons, as well as a "percentage of the weapon that hits", which should give us the basic area that a weapon will impact upon with a little maths.  (Also, why would an eyelid stop 10% of ALL attacks?  Wouldn't a spear piercing through the eye with a good, direct hit, be capable of going through it like wet tissue paper, especially compared to a limp-wristed punch?)


The problem, then, is that we need to have specific placement within a creature's body for this to make sense.

Honestly, the first thing I can think of (to be as accurate as possible) is to simply make a cartesian coordinate system, so that you have a grid inside the body location, and can assign body parts to specific relative locations in the body part.  (This would have to be percentage-based, or otherwise a fraction, as this is, after all, relative location, so that having a [50, 50, 50] coordinate would be in the dead center of a body location.) Doing that, we could pin specific organs to specific locations (although I fear for sanity checking this... what happens when a mislabeling in the raws or just careless programming makes a heart that overlaps the space with the lungs, or a liver that sticks out of the body because it was put too far to the right?), which would also mean we would not have to specifically stitch every single organ to every other tissue in the area.  We can also just stitch the head (or at least, the neck) to, say, [50, 50, 100] of the upper torso, and have it in a relative location to the rest of the body.

Doing that, if we simply make the attack have an attack area be something like a circle upon this little stitched-together rag-doll, which continues pushing force through the rag-doll (as a cylinder, I suppose, although something more hemispherical might be more accurate) until enough tissue resists the blow that the damage stops.
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thijser

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 03:31:29 am »

I think that if with mapping all body parts+engine is going to be a lot more work for toady aswell as a lot more work for the engine.

The eyelid stops a certain amout of damage because there is a change that the attack comes from a low angle and is going to hit the head (skull) or will only hit till there (I just randomly though of some numbers...)
I do think that maybe a way to include weapon size would be nice but it should be done in such a way that it does not overpower a few big weapons (considering the fact that big weapons is also heavy weapons which is currently already a strong variable without downside)

What we could do is put a "chart" of what parts are "in the way" this could look a bit like this

skull/eyes/ears>brains 
this would prevent the death from a minor damage to the heart from sparring.
if we have this we could also add a percentage to show how much of it is covered. We could add this to diffrend types of damage aswell.
90%skull/7%eyes/3%ears

alternatifly we could have parts generate a armor status for the parts behind it this would look a bit like this
brain:8(armor)skull
heart:5 armor ribs
ext.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 03:12:02 pm »

I think that if with mapping all body parts+engine is going to be a lot more work for toady aswell as a lot more work for the engine.

The alternative is to do a "the heart is next to the lungs and above the diaphragm" and "the stomach is surrounded by the liver, the pancreas, the..." type deal, which isn't exactly ideal.

The matrix itself for body parts isn't really that hard, calculating the size of a weapon's impact is apparently already part of the calculations for damage, calculating the size of body parts is already taking place, so the only thing I think would take work is sanity checking where the organs go, and the calculations for mapping the path that an impact's damage would spread beyond the initial impact point, which would largely be based upon the current tissue data.  This doesn't seem to me to be particularly difficult to pull off.

As for the engine... I don't really think so.  We already randomly target body parts, so we can also randomly target some point on the surface of a grid just by doing a couple more rolls of the dice. Speaking of dice, I've seen systems like this for paper-and-pencil wargames using nothing but dice. While perhaps a little work for a human to keep track of, simply rolling for hit location isn't something beyond a computer by any means.

Besides which, I get the impression that Toady prefers to do the overly complex but accurate thing in big programming leaps once and for all (except for subsequently going back to fine-tune all the variables and bug quash), rather than make tiny incrimental changes.

I do think that maybe a way to include weapon size would be nice but it should be done in such a way that it does not overpower a few big weapons (considering the fact that big weapons is also heavy weapons which is currently already a strong variable without downside)

Well, thing is, the combat system Toady came up with is based upon gritty realism, without trying to make any sort of "game balance".  And realistically, the only thing that does more damage than hitting someone really hard with a heavy chunk of metal is hitting someone even harder with a bigger, heavier chunk of metal.

In the interest of realism, the best way to balance that would be to simply start penalizing heavy weapons in terms of making them slow down their users and significantly drain the endurance of their weilders.  Real life wearers or plate armor swinging heavy weaponry designed to pierce plate would last less than 5 minutes without a breather, no matter how well trained or in shape they were.

What we could do is put a "chart" of what parts are "in the way" this could look a bit like this

skull/eyes/ears>brains 
this would prevent the death from a minor damage to the heart from sparring.
if we have this we could also add a percentage to show how much of it is covered. We could add this to diffrend types of damage aswell.
90%skull/7%eyes/3%ears

alternatifly we could have parts generate a armor status for the parts behind it this would look a bit like this
brain:8(armor)skull
heart:5 armor ribs
ext.
[/quote]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure that any damage to organs already requires that an attack be able to generate at least bruises at least down to the muscle level, anyway.  That means there is an "armor" already taking place.
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"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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thijser

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 12:46:34 pm »

Well the armor system would give every part an armor rating based on the parts around it for example the skull would give the brain a big armor boost until it's to damaged (this armor would decrease as the protecting part(s) get damaged)

but I do see that a map might also work veyr well but it should also keep size and shape in mind which might make it a very difficult project (and the fact that it's quite a lot harder to recycle for diffrend annimals)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 01:10:45 pm »

Well the armor system would give every part an armor rating based on the parts around it for example the skull would give the brain a big armor boost until it's to damaged (this armor would decrease as the protecting part(s) get damaged)

but I do see that a map might also work veyr well but it should also keep size and shape in mind which might make it a very difficult project (and the fact that it's quite a lot harder to recycle for diffrend annimals)

Given the way that things already work, I would expect that, along with the body templates that we already get to make dwarven bodies largely just a matter of declaring [BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS: THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH:FACIAL_FEATURES:TEETH:RIBCAGE] we could go just a little further, and declare an organ chart raw for all those parts, so that all the bipedals and quadrapedals all have default organ sets and placements. If you really look at it, Dwarves get plenty of special attention, while everything else in the game get pretty slapdash number-filling, with, I presume, the expectation that someone will just mod in better numbers later, which is why we get stuff like the spider mod, where someone made more anatomically correct spiders.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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thijser

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 12:59:16 pm »

Well in order to establish what is going to work best we could try to contact toady (I know how most systems work but not the combat system)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 01:04:35 pm »

Well in order to establish what is going to work best we could try to contact toady (I know how most systems work but not the combat system)

If you want to email him or post a link to this thread in the Future of the Fortress thread, go ahead, I guess.  I generally don't try to contact Toady directly, myself, though...
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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DDR

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 12:31:59 am »

NW_Kohaku: Your description is somewhat disturbing. I can't seem to rid my head of that image now.
:|  ->  XP
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thijser

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Re: Related damage
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 03:28:01 am »

I just got this message from toady
"This is already handled more or less by the body part relationships in the raws, although I've underspecified them myself.  Things like skulls/ribs/eyelids/cheeks/lips are handled.  You could add in relationships between the heart/liver etc.  I just didn't get a chance."

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I'm not a native English speaker. Feel free to point out grammar/spelling mistakes. This way I can learn better English.