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[Makbeth]

Well, I guess some of you would.  But that's not the actual point here.

Every time anyone criticizes the state of the game, be it a complaint about what's missing or what's in there, shouldn't be, and is ruining the experience, it takes about, oh, two minutes at most for someone to say "but he's just one guy!" 

Yes, we know that.  It's pretty cool and a real-life example of dwarfiness.  It's coolness wears off though as we see version after version with the same major bugs.  It's a self-imposed limitation that has severe consequences for the quality of the game and the pace of development.  It's a choice, and not every cool decision is the best or most efficient one.

I understand that Toady may be doing it this way to ensure that the game adheres to his vision and does not veer off into places he never wanted to take it, to ensure that he knows the code as thoroughly as he can, and perhaps for other good reasons.

I would just like to suggest that the fact that DF is programmed by one guy is because Toady chose to do it that way.  There are consequences for that choice, and because of that, it's not a very good excuse for the extremely poor quality of some areas of the game.  Toady mines out a kickass fortress, but it seems to me like he needs someone to do the stone hauling and engraving so that all those jobs get done together.  I am pretty sure Toady is not going to make any changes to the development team, and this is not addressed as much to him as it is to the people who make the "one guy" excuse.

If Toady wants to do it alone, it's his game and his choice.  But that doesn't mean we can't be critical of that decisions' effect on the quality of the game or its rate of improvement.  If you feel like you need to say "but he's just one guy!", you should consider the possibility that that's part of the problem.  It's a design decision similar to the in-game design decisions, and this player does not think it's a good one.

And no, I'm not saying Bay 12 needs to turn into EA, I'm saying it might be better if it were more like Cyan during the making of Myst.  Just one or two people contributing to the bug fixing and polish, while Toady continues taking the game to greater heights of awesome.

[Helmaroc]

This has been brought up before, Toady doesn't want a team anytime soon, I'm sorry, deal with it, the end.

A team of bug-stompers could speed along some of the development, but I think I speak for most players in saying that I am perfectly fine with waiting a little longer and tolerating bugs if that's the way Tarn wants to do it. I have never found anything that even compares to Dwarf Fortress as far as city-builders/god games/simulation/strategy goes.

So yeah, you have a point, but I don't think we're going to see any additions to the programming team, possibly ever.

EDIT: You know, I was trying to be nice about it, but I think KrunkSplein hit it just about perfectly.

[KrunkSplein]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm sorry for feeding the troll.

You are saying that because Toady chooses to create his product his way, you are justified in whining about the issues which affect you.  Because he chooses not to relinquish control of his baby to others, you are entitled to bitch and moan.  It doesn't matter that at any point, Toady may have to change the underlying core of the entire game to enable a feature, and having other hands in the pie severely complicates that.  It doesn't matter that ramping up new developers would take an ungodly amount of time away from actual development.  You want the game to work the way you want it to, regardless of Toady's personal desires.

Oh, and the game is free.  Can't forget that.

I am disgusted.

[edit: can someone please lock or delete this thread?]

[Makbeth]

Yes, I am justified in criticizing the things which negatively impact me, in ANY context in any part of my life.  Whether that's a big enough deal for others to actually change those things is another matter, and I believe I made it clear that I was not overestimating the importance of my opinion.

I did not say he needed to relinquish control.  I thought I said he should keep it.

I said I understood the reasons why Toady might want to do this alone, including that it's the only way he'll be able to truly know what's going on in all the code.

You have a point about screening out the good candidates from the bad ones.  I assumed Toady would pick people he already trusts, but perhaps not.

Toady's plans for the game are pretty much good enough for me.  The problem is that they don't work as intended and tend to take a while to get fixed.

I have a check in my wallet written out to Toady for $100.  I just need to get to the post office because I don't have any more stamps.

I am confused as to why you've chosen this thing of all things to be disgusted at.

Banning me, locking this thread, or deleting it is certainly their freedom.  I think though that it would not reflect very positively on bay12 or its moderators to silence people who disagree with them.

[Helmaroc]

Whether that's a big enough deal for others to actually change those things is another matter,

I don't think it is here.

[mallocks]

If Toady wants to do it alone, it's his game and his choice.  But that doesn't mean we can't be critical of that decisions' effect on the quality of the game or its rate of improvement.

I think the reason so few people are critical of Toady's decision to develop Dwarf Fortress alone is that everything that it is, in all its stunning complexity and depth, is as a result of it having been developed solo. If you accept that Toady's vision for Dwarf Fortress is incredible then you also should accept that when he says he wouldn't be able to work in a team that that is the truth.

[Makbeth]

Whether that's a big enough deal for others to actually change those things is another matter,

I don't think it is here.

Didn't I just say that, in the part of the quoted sentance that you didn't quote, no less?

[Helmaroc]

Whether that's a big enough deal for others to actually change those things is another matter,

I don't think it is here.

Didn't I just say that, in the part of the quoted sentance that you didn't quote, no less?

Then why are you still here?

[Makbeth]

If Toady wants to do it alone, it's his game and his choice.  But that doesn't mean we can't be critical of that decisions' effect on the quality of the game or its rate of improvement.

I think the reason so few people are critical of Toady's decision to develop Dwarf Fortress alone is that everything that it is, in all its stunning complexity and depth, is as a result of it having been developed solo. If you accept that Toady's vision for Dwarf Fortress is incredible then you also should accept that when he says he wouldn't be able to work in a team that that is the truth.

I've worked as a software tester before, and I can tell you that bug fixes generally do not change the concept, intent, or function of the feature in question, they just make it work when it wasn't working before.  I know the dangers of new team members hijacking a project, and I don't want that to happen to DF.  I don't know how to say it more clearly than I already have.  I think Toady is awesome, and I think his game is awesome.  But, in a creative endeavor, it is inevitable to have defects that even the creator didn't want, and fixing them is a time-consuming process.  I'm the sole creator of my own work and I would love to be able to focus on just making the thing, but I spend much more time than I would like fixing my field's equivalent of bugs.  I can't hire someone to fix those so I don't have to (because of my contract and because I don't know anyone who could fix them, and I'm not sure I could afford to pay them if I could).

Oddly, no one has come up with this reply to what I've said:  Maybe Toady can't pay a person to do bugfixing, and maybe he couldn't find a willing volunteer.  That's a great reason to work alone and no one's responded with that yet.  So yes, there you go, I'm aware that my opinion is not the One True Way that all things should be done.  I'm just saying that the one-man approach has problems.  Whether those problems are worse than the alternatives is a matter of debate, and I'm not convinced that they are.

[mallocks]

If Toady wants to do it alone, it's his game and his choice.  But that doesn't mean we can't be critical of that decisions' effect on the quality of the game or its rate of improvement.

I think the reason so few people are critical of Toady's decision to develop Dwarf Fortress alone is that everything that it is, in all its stunning complexity and depth, is as a result of it having been developed solo. If you accept that Toady's vision for Dwarf Fortress is incredible then you also should accept that when he says he wouldn't be able to work in a team that that is the truth.

I've worked as a software tester before, and I can tell you that bug fixes generally do not change the concept, intent, or function of the feature in question, they just make it work when it wasn't working before.  I know the dangers of new team members hijacking a project, and I don't want that to happen to DF.  I don't know how to say it more clearly than I already have.  I think Toady is awesome, and I think his game is awesome.  But, in a creative endeavor, it is inevitable to have defects that even the creator didn't want, and fixing them is a time-consuming process.  I'm the sole creator of my own work and I would love to be able to focus on just making the thing, but I spend much more time than I would like fixing my field's equivalent of bugs.  I can't hire someone to fix those so I don't have to (because of my contract and because I don't know anyone who could fix them, and I'm not sure I could afford to pay them if I could).

Oddly, no one has come up with this reply to what I've said:  Maybe Toady can't pay a person to do bugfixing, and maybe he couldn't find a willing volunteer.  That's a great reason to work alone and no one's responded with that yet.  So yes, there you go, I'm aware that my opinion is not the One True Way that all things should be done.  I'm just saying that the one-man approach has problems.  Whether those problems are worse than the alternatives is a matter of debate, and I'm not convinced that they are.

And I'm just saying you can't separate the methodology and the result as neatly as that. Why won't you believe that Toady's a fair judge of the programming environment under which he can operate and crucially maintain enthusiasm?

[Makbeth]

Whether that's a big enough deal for others to actually change those things is another matter,

I don't think it is here.

Didn't I just say that, in the part of the quoted sentance that you didn't quote, no less?

Then why are you still here?

Well, to be blunt about it, because you and others keep missing the point of what I said.  I was hoping y'all would respond to what I actually wrote.  You know, like, the whole thing.  Without the parts that aren't there because I didn't write them.  But this is a forum, and it's on the internet, and I have work and errands to do, so good question.  Thanks, you just made me realize I'm wasting my time here, and in an odd twist have become the most helpful responder on this thread so far.

[KrunkSplein]

Oddly, no one has come up with this reply to what I've said:  Maybe Toady can't pay a person to do bugfixing, and maybe he couldn't find a willing volunteer.  That's a great reason to work alone and no one's responded with that yet.

Seriously?  Now I know you're trolling.  There are so many experienced programmers on this board who would love nothing more than to work (for free) on DF in any capacity that Toady had to make "I work alone" an actual policy.

Okay.  No more troll-feeding for me.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I would indeed build a fortress with one dwarf. Cuts down on FPS issues.

[Rafal99]

Oddly, no one has come up with this reply to what I've said:  Maybe Toady can't pay a person to do bugfixing, and maybe he couldn't find a willing volunteer.  That's a great reason to work alone and no one's responded with that yet.  So yes, there you go, I'm aware that my opinion is not the One True Way that all things should be done.  I'm just saying that the one-man approach has problems.  Whether those problems are worse than the alternatives is a matter of debate, and I'm not convinced that they are.

I bet there are tons of people in this community who would be happy to do it for free if only it improved DF. See Baughn's SDL / OpenGL work.

Personally I would love to put my hands on DF code to improve some interface parts that annoy me.
At the same time I totally understand why Toady want to work alone and wouldn't release the source. I would probably behave the same way if I was in his place.
Toady has stated many times that most important thing to him is the fun he has from making this game. Dealing with others making changes to his project may not always be a nice experience. Don't forget that it is also his only source of income.
So far I am impressed with Toady's dedication and speed of his work. Many projects maintained by several people actually progress slower than DF.

Finally I have to say that I would rather have DF with all its bugs but worked on by Toady, than DF worked on by a team of people, but without Toady because he decided it is no longer fun to him. Think about it.

[joss]

Is it just me, or is this thread reeking with blind hate against, by first impression, a reasonable and polite person who is expressing his own opinion on the process of development. The critique in the first post was reasonably argumented and Makbeth himself, as allegedly (it is the internet afterall) having worked as a software tester, is to some extent familiar with the process of game development. I'm not saying I approve or support his/your ideas, but I hardly think they should be called "moaning and bitching" or something to be disgusted about. This has made me somewhat sad.