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[Tormy]

DF is a complex topic.  I'm a guy who likes video games, and I love DF, but I don't think DF is a very good video game.  Let's face it:  This is a public alpha of a game that will probably be in development for decades.  It's being developed by two people and coded by one.  A project this ambitious will take thousands and thousands of man-hours to be realized, and with just Toady doing the heavy lifting, that translates to a very long dev time.  It lacks polish, it lack graphics, the interface is famously punishing and just about everyone who takes the game seriously modifies it and runs one or more helper utilities to make it work better for the player.  When I introduce a friend to DF, I make sure they have Dwarf Therapist and a few changes to the .init file before they try their first embark.

I like that, to some extent.  The progress of the game, the community's relationship to it and and big ideas that are being folded into DF all make me very happy.  I sometimes think that the development of DF is more interesting and fun than the game itself (depending on the version).  I think it's entirely possible that this will never be finished.  Either Toady will lose interest and do something else, or the community will be unable to support him and he'll go get a "real" job, or he'll just work on it until they nail his coffin shut.  A boxed version on store shelves is pretty much unimaginable to me.

In years to come, though, DF will have a big impact on game design, I think.  It's taught us a lot about how much complexity players are willing to tolerate, and shown some of the rewards that can only be earned through incredible attention to detail and massive scope.

This is a very good post, I agree with everything what you've said, except for one thing: I think that DF is an awesome game already [I am talking about the gameplay & diversity of the game, nothing else!]...in fact even the ancient "2d" version was awesome.

[spooq]

DF is a complex topic.  I'm a guy who likes video games, and I love DF, but I don't think DF is a very good video game.  Let's face it:  This is a public alpha of a game that will probably be in development for decades.  It's being developed by two people and coded by one.  A project this ambitious will take thousands and thousands of man-hours to be realized, and with just Toady doing the heavy lifting, that translates to a very long dev time.  It lacks polish, it lack graphics, the interface is famously punishing and just about everyone who takes the game seriously modifies it and runs one or more helper utilities to make it work better for the player.  When I introduce a friend to DF, I make sure they have Dwarf Therapist and a few changes to the .init file before they try their first embark.

I like that, to some extent.  The progress of the game, the community's relationship to it and and big ideas that are being folded into DF all make me very happy.  I sometimes think that the development of DF is more interesting and fun than the game itself (depending on the version).  I think it's entirely possible that this will never be finished.  Either Toady will lose interest and do something else, or the community will be unable to support him and he'll go get a "real" job, or he'll just work on it until they nail his coffin shut.  A boxed version on store shelves is pretty much unimaginable to me.

In years to come, though, DF will have a big impact on game design, I think.  It's taught us a lot about how much complexity players are willing to tolerate, and shown some of the rewards that can only be earned through incredible attention to detail and massive scope.

This is a very good post, I agree with everything what you've said, except for one thing: I think that DF is an awesome game already [I am talking about the gameplay & diversity of the game, nothing else!]...in fact even the ancient "2d" version was awesome.

There are serious pacing issues with the game as it stands. Adding digging enemies would have a far larger impact than many of the changes we are seeing, for example. The primary thrust of development at this point in time has little to do with creating a structured challenge. I'd rather Toady got on with his world-building AND his game design, rather than re-inventing generic game-code, badly.

[Tormy]

DF is a complex topic.  I'm a guy who likes video games, and I love DF, but I don't think DF is a very good video game.  Let's face it:  This is a public alpha of a game that will probably be in development for decades.  It's being developed by two people and coded by one.  A project this ambitious will take thousands and thousands of man-hours to be realized, and with just Toady doing the heavy lifting, that translates to a very long dev time.  It lacks polish, it lack graphics, the interface is famously punishing and just about everyone who takes the game seriously modifies it and runs one or more helper utilities to make it work better for the player.  When I introduce a friend to DF, I make sure they have Dwarf Therapist and a few changes to the .init file before they try their first embark.

I like that, to some extent.  The progress of the game, the community's relationship to it and and big ideas that are being folded into DF all make me very happy.  I sometimes think that the development of DF is more interesting and fun than the game itself (depending on the version).  I think it's entirely possible that this will never be finished.  Either Toady will lose interest and do something else, or the community will be unable to support him and he'll go get a "real" job, or he'll just work on it until they nail his coffin shut.  A boxed version on store shelves is pretty much unimaginable to me.

In years to come, though, DF will have a big impact on game design, I think.  It's taught us a lot about how much complexity players are willing to tolerate, and shown some of the rewards that can only be earned through incredible attention to detail and massive scope.

This is a very good post, I agree with everything what you've said, except for one thing: I think that DF is an awesome game already [I am talking about the gameplay & diversity of the game, nothing else!]...in fact even the ancient "2d" version was awesome.

There are serious pacing issues with the game as it stands. Adding digging enemies would have a far larger impact than many of the changes we are seeing, for example. The primary thrust of development at this point in time has little to do with creating a structured challenge. I'd rather Toady got on with his world-building AND his game design, rather than re-inventing generic game-code, badly.

Funny that you've mentioned "digging enemies". IIRC it was me who suggested them years ago.  .. lot of players were against them in those days, but as I see, Toady will code them in. [it's on the dev. site] Pure awesomeness!

*edit*

Hah, check out this topic. We even had a "vote" about this. -> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28846.0

[NFossil]

When I see this kind of thread I always wonder: What exactly are the "same major bugs" that persist "version after version"? Do they actually have that much effect on gameplay so that they really have to be fixed that quickly? I've been playing since the 0.27s and things mostly worked just fine. IMHO, exaggerating problems is not the way to report them.

[spooq]

When I see this kind of thread I always wonder: What exactly are the "same major bugs" that persist "version after version"? Do they actually have that much effect on gameplay so that they really have to be fixed that quickly? I've been playing since the 0.27s and things mostly worked just fine. IMHO, exaggerating problems is not the way to report them.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=797

Please don't think this is all about the path-finding either. Open up Mantis and have a look for yourself.

Toady soldiers on, fighting the good fight. I really don't want to put a "but" here, but... he could do with some help. It's not just bugs, it's bugs + new features + gameplay design + UI design + world-gen + geology + planning + 3 operating systems + living on donations. IMHO the prioritisation of work can get a bit screwy, but no wonder, really. It is much nicer to work on a new pet feature that doesn't yet have any bugs listed against it!