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[Joishi]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks this is maybe abusing game mechanics (assuming there's not a typo Toady made when he got cost of sand).

Anyone else take bags of sand on embark with them to get some very very very cheap extra bags?

[win32anon]

As I see the game, buying anything in the embark zones is just to make the gamer easier, you can easily start the game without nothing but a pick and a battle axe.(and maybe some booze)

[Passive Fist]

Bags of sand cost 1. You can just dump the sand out from the stocks menu.

[ChickenLips]

Yeah, I did that.  Felt kinda cheap though, the second time around, so I sheepishly put the sandbags down and bought some dog leather bags.

[Surray]

Bags of sand cost 1. You can just dump the sand out from the stocks menu.

Perhaps try reading the post next time instead of only the thread title.


I grab sand bags occasionally and I'd say it counts as abusing game mechanics because if empty bags cost more than bags with contents then that doesn't
really make much sense. But still, DF is all about abusing game mechanics to do all kinds of crazy stuff.
Just do whatever you feel like doing and don't feel constricted by thinking about the way the game is supposed to be played.
Do your thing and have fun, that's all that matters.

[ItchyBeard]

No, no... you've got it all wrong. It makes perfect sense.

You head down to the supermarket to pick up some bags to store rubbish in. You have a choice between buying empty rubbish bags for $5, or the same rubbish bags for $1 but containing 30kg of sand each. Which one do you pick?

Joking aside, there is currently little difference in utility between a bag and a bag full of sand, whereas in reality you're going to end up with a very sandy bag you somehow have to clean before using it to store things. If you had to take the sandy bag down to the river to clean it before shoving food in it, people would embark with empty bags even if the prices were identical (unless they actually needed the sand).

[CognitiveDissonance]

I don't do either! I embark with a lot of 5 point leather, like cat or mule or horse, and make my own bags.
It adds to the fort value, too!

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

No, no... you've got it all wrong. It makes perfect sense.

You head down to the supermarket to pick up some bags to store rubbish in. You have a choice between buying empty rubbish bags for $5, or the same rubbish bags for $1 but containing 30kg of sand each. Which one do you pick?

Joking aside, there is currently little difference in utility between a bag and a bag full of sand, whereas in reality you're going to end up with a very sandy bag you somehow have to clean before using it to store things. If you had to take the sandy bag down to the river to clean it before shoving food in it, people would embark with empty bags even if the prices were identical (unless they actually needed the sand).

perhaps a good way for toady to balance it out, is to let containers wear down with usage like clothes do, and have the free bags and barrels be fairly worn.

Would also be a good reason to start making those Steel Barrels

[Joishi]

I'm glad some people actually read my question and replied.  ^.^

I don't do either! I embark with a lot of 5 point leather, like cat or mule or horse, and make my own bags.
It adds to the fort value, too!

That's actually a good point.  Four more points per bag for fort value isn't that shabby.  Although I usually want my first round of immigrants being as small as possible.  :T

[lowbart]

People are always hating on migrants. I always overstock my food and booze (once the production is actually up and running), so to me the benefit of having more working hands outweighs the inconvenience of getting them set up in the fortress.

Also, just to be on topic for a second, I don't see any problem with buying the 1-point bag of sand instead of the 5-point empty bag. The Mountainhomes are probably a bureaucratic maze and it's just a sweet bargain or pricing error that happens to work out in your favor.

[Joishi]

Well the price of a bag actually isn't 5..  Cheap leather is 5.  In terms of pig tail fiber, the thread is 12, the cloth is 14, and an actual bag is 20 I think.  *shrugs*  Don't feel like loading up DF and going all the way to embark just to check.

[cyks]

The thread and bag prices are close enough grom what I have seen.  I get cheap bags by stocking up on thread and having a dwarf loom and cut bags after embark.  I like it all in a bin.

[Psieye]

People are always hating on migrants. I always overstock my food and booze (once the production is actually up and running), so to me the benefit of having more working hands outweighs the inconvenience of getting them set up in the fortress.

To me, the inconvenience of having a small population is far greater than the inconvenience of setting them up in the fortress. So much so that I dig down to the magma within first spring and start pumping out Electrum and glass trade goods to get as many migrants in as possible at the start. I'll have to use this cheap leather -> bag trick when I next start a fort.

[Taranli Maren]

You could say the same thing about buying dogs for slaughter.  A dog costs around 16, and yields 24 food and 13 fat.  This is much cheaper than 2/unit of dog meat.  Also, plump helmets are cheaper than booze (1 plump helmet costs 4, one log costs 3, and produces 5 dwarven wine, which costs 10).  Sure, these aren't as extreme as the sand thing, but they're similar in my mind. If you feel it is cheating, either don't do it, or produce glass before using the bags, instead of dumping the sand (didn't know you could to that tbh).

[Joishi]

You could say the same thing about buying dogs for slaughter.  A dog costs around 16, and yields 24 food and 13 fat.  This is much cheaper than 2/unit of dog meat.  Also, plump helmets are cheaper than booze (1 plump helmet costs 4, one log costs 3, and produces 5 dwarven wine, which costs 10).  Sure, these aren't as extreme as the sand thing, but they're similar in my mind. If you feel it is cheating, either don't do it, or produce glass before using the bags, instead of dumping the sand (didn't know you could to that tbh).

You have it backwards.  The end product SHOULD be more expensive than the parts to make the product, since there is labor involved.  In the real world, you pay for labor, and it always costs more to have someone else do it for you than to do it yourself.  So yes, a dog SHOULD be cheaper than paying someone else to butcher it for you and taking the meat.  The thing with sand, on the other hand, is the reverse of that.  The end product (a bag), WITH SOMETHING IN IT no less, is wayyyyyy cheaper than buying the parts to make it.  That's the only reason why I feel sort of "dirty" by buying them.  But .. they're just such a good deal!!  hehe

Urist McCheapskate is conflicted!