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Author Topic: Who here plays DF without sets?  (Read 8213 times)

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2010, 10:25:15 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

Have you seen the old dev. page?

Core50, TILESET SUPPORT, (Future): Allow graphical tiles to be used for all game objects.
So because some creatures are still represented by letters, it's incomprehensible? I just don't see that. I mean, it's mostly just forgotten beasts, corpses and other marginal stuff like that that don't have graphics. Hardly makes enough to utterly confuse anyone.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

Ledi

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2010, 10:35:44 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

I find Mayday's set to be too cluttered - the ground, the boulders etc - like there's too much detail in each square to allow the eye to take in the entire screen. The default tileset and other tilesets which just change fonts slightly keep the incredibly clean and easy-to-read look over nearly any size/resolution of a screen. I look at a Mayday screenshot and have to ask myself if there's anything special about that ground, or is it just normal rock/earth/walls.

A tile is displayed as a tile, true, but the two tiles (default and graphical) may be so very different that the game fades into illegibility at times (one example which irked me about a tileset was that each "." would become a spattering of earth which filled the entire tile, and appear at the end of every sentence. And that the "=" sign would be a pile of logs, even when it was being used to denote the quality of an item).

That being said... I prefer square. I'm really bad when it comes to symmetry and making sure everything is measured. The only things that have broken me of this somewhat are the OCD challenge I ran myself and playing a co-op game using DFterm.
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So Ledi's been training the cats into an army of disposable warbeasts?  Why did no-one think of this sooner?!
Hellcannon seemed to be constantly on the verge of death and Levergedon before my turn helped, but ultimately what killed it was Ledi's cat army.

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2010, 10:43:31 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

I find Mayday's set to be too cluttered - the ground, the boulders etc - like there's too much detail in each square to allow the eye to take in the entire screen. The default tileset and other tilesets which just change fonts slightly keep the incredibly clean and easy-to-read look over nearly any size/resolution of a screen. I look at a Mayday screenshot and have to ask myself if there's anything special about that ground, or is it just normal rock/earth/walls.

A tile is displayed as a tile, true, but the two tiles (default and graphical) may be so very different that the game fades into illegibility at times (one example which irked me about a tileset was that each "." would become a spattering of earth which filled the entire tile, and appear at the end of every sentence. And that the "=" sign would be a pile of logs, even when it was being used to denote the quality of an item).

That being said... I prefer square. I'm really bad when it comes to symmetry and making sure everything is measured. The only things that have broken me of this somewhat are the OCD challenge I ran myself and playing a co-op game using DFterm.
But that's only because you are gotten so used to ASCII. Give the two options to a tabula rasa person and they'll definitely find most graphics sets easier to interpret.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

Tormy

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2010, 10:50:41 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

Have you seen the old dev. page?

Core50, TILESET SUPPORT, (Future): Allow graphical tiles to be used for all game objects.

So because some creatures are still represented by letters, it's incomprehensible? I just don't see that. I mean, it's mostly just forgotten beasts, corpses and other marginal stuff like that that don't have graphics. Hardly makes enough to utterly confuse anyone.

It's not just some creatures & it's not confusing at all, I just don't like it. :) Some gfx related things are messed up right now in these tilesets, because X tile is used to display more stuff in the game. Once we can create unique tiles for all game objects, proper tilesets can be made...[...in fact perhaps we will be able to use more tiles for 1 object. Like different unit gfx based on weaponry and armors...but these are not so important, but it would be cool regardless. :)]
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Ledi

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2010, 11:01:39 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

I find Mayday's set to be too cluttered - the ground, the boulders etc - like there's too much detail in each square to allow the eye to take in the entire screen. The default tileset and other tilesets which just change fonts slightly keep the incredibly clean and easy-to-read look over nearly any size/resolution of a screen. I look at a Mayday screenshot and have to ask myself if there's anything special about that ground, or is it just normal rock/earth/walls.

A tile is displayed as a tile, true, but the two tiles (default and graphical) may be so very different that the game fades into illegibility at times (one example which irked me about a tileset was that each "." would become a spattering of earth which filled the entire tile, and appear at the end of every sentence. And that the "=" sign would be a pile of logs, even when it was being used to denote the quality of an item).

That being said... I prefer square. I'm really bad when it comes to symmetry and making sure everything is measured. The only things that have broken me of this somewhat are the OCD challenge I ran myself and playing a co-op game using DFterm.
But that's only because you are gotten so used to ASCII. Give the two options to a tabula rasa person and they'll definitely find most graphics sets easier to interpret.

Have you tried to read sentences filled with switches, spatterings of dirt, buckets and grass clumps? It's oddly distracting. (and no, I'm not exaggerating. It's the one reason I eventually dumped graphics sets)

DF is the only ASCII game I've ever played. I came straight from 2D and 3D gaming (eg WoW, Aion, Spore) with a strong sympathy for sprite-based games (especially RTS and RPG). If anything, I'm the person that graphics sets are aimed at. And I found that the more tiles I could see at once, the more confusing the entire layout was to me. When we could only see few tiles to a screen, it didn't matter that tiles were cluttered because they would be viewed at a low resolution (SNES games, for example, on an old TV). As screen resolutions become higher, more and more tiles can be viewed on a single screen, and with the variety of things that are being shown on one screen at once in DF, it can become harder and harder to take in a scene at a glance. Mostly the clutter that I find so distracting is in backgrounds - the ground, grass and water graphics of sets.

I get that it is an aesthetical choice for everyone who chooses to use or not use a set, but to claim that I only defend the original ASCII because I am "so used" to it is fraudulent. I have only used the vanilla tileset since .31 came out, and it was then that I realised how much easier it made reading the game - for me.

Edit: Again, I'm not saying that either is superior, or the 'only' way to play the game, just musing on what I, as one player of DF, has come across. I believe whichever way someone prefers to play the game is up to them, and can only suggest that experimentation is a great way to find out which type of tileset/graphics set suits one. For me personally, that was starting with graphics and a custom tileset, and ending up using vanilla. As Tormy says, once the doubles issue is sorted out, a much wider vista will be opened regarding graphics sets.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:21:43 am by Ledi »
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So Ledi's been training the cats into an army of disposable warbeasts?  Why did no-one think of this sooner?!
Hellcannon seemed to be constantly on the verge of death and Levergedon before my turn helped, but ultimately what killed it was Ledi's cat army.

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2010, 11:07:14 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

Have you seen the old dev. page?

Core50, TILESET SUPPORT, (Future): Allow graphical tiles to be used for all game objects.

So because some creatures are still represented by letters, it's incomprehensible? I just don't see that. I mean, it's mostly just forgotten beasts, corpses and other marginal stuff like that that don't have graphics. Hardly makes enough to utterly confuse anyone.

It's not just some creatures & it's not confusing at all, I just don't like it. :) Some gfx related things are messed up right now in these tilesets, because X tile is used to display more stuff in the game. Once we can create unique tiles for all game objects, proper tilesets can be made...[...in fact perhaps we will be able to use more tiles for 1 object. Like different unit gfx based on weaponry and armors...but these are not so important, but it would be cool regardless. :)]
Yes, but you can get used to those double-tiles just as like you've gotten used to ASCII doubles. The only difference is that you don't, for example have to learn what symbolizes a barrel because it is simply a picture of barrel, only that two barrels symbolize a pump.

Just reiterate, I'm not saying ASCII is any worse for understanding what's on the screen when you get used to it, just that graphic sets have more manageable learning curve. And once you learn either, it gets more difficult to figure out the other. As for the letters being replaced by images, no I have not experienced that. I suppose the special symbols might change, but basic text is still ABCs to me.

It's just that comments that imply that graphic sets are somehow inherently inferior are really annoying. Most graphics sets don't have that initial "Wow, wtf?" effect ASCII has when you first start to play DF, and neither are they in anyway inadequate to represent any tiles in the game.

Again I'm not saying ASCII is worse if you happen to prefer it, just that it is a bit more difficult to "learn", and that you shouldn't say stupid things like "It's the only real way to play DF". It's really ridiculous what people can turn into elitism...
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

Tormy

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2010, 11:20:14 am »

Also, what does this "more cluttered" refer to? To my knowledge each tile and the objects on it are displayed exactly the same way whether you use graphics or not, only the symbols are different.

Have you seen the old dev. page?

Core50, TILESET SUPPORT, (Future): Allow graphical tiles to be used for all game objects.

So because some creatures are still represented by letters, it's incomprehensible? I just don't see that. I mean, it's mostly just forgotten beasts, corpses and other marginal stuff like that that don't have graphics. Hardly makes enough to utterly confuse anyone.

It's not just some creatures & it's not confusing at all, I just don't like it. :) Some gfx related things are messed up right now in these tilesets, because X tile is used to display more stuff in the game. Once we can create unique tiles for all game objects, proper tilesets can be made...[...in fact perhaps we will be able to use more tiles for 1 object. Like different unit gfx based on weaponry and armors...but these are not so important, but it would be cool regardless. :)]
Yes, but you can get used to those double-tiles just as like you've gotten used to ASCII doubles. The only difference is that you don't, for example have to learn what symbolizes a barrel because it is simply a picture of barrel, only that two barrels symbolize a pump.

Just reiterate, I'm not saying ASCII is any worse for understanding what's on the screen when you get used to it, just that graphic sets have more manageable learning curve. And once you learn either, it gets more difficult to figure out the other. As for the letters being replaced by images, no I have not experienced that. I suppose the special symbols might change, but basic text is still ABCs to me.

It's just that comments that imply that graphic sets are somehow inherently inferior are really annoying. Most graphics sets don't have that initial "Wow, wtf?" effect ASCII has when you first start to play DF, and neither are they in anyway inadequate to represent any tiles in the game.

Again I'm not saying ASCII is worse if you happen to prefer it, just that it is a bit more difficult to "learn", and that you shouldn't say stupid things like "It's the only real way to play DF". It's really ridiculous what people can turn into elitism...

I never said that gfx sets are inferior to ASCII. It's a matter of subjective opinion, that which one you like more...but saying that gfx sets are inferior to the ASCII display method?....well it's just bullsh*tting. :) [PS...as I said, I WILL use a gfx set as well, once Toady makes the necessary changes to the engine.]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:22:40 am by Tormy »
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Mini

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2010, 01:01:26 pm »

Most graphics sets don't have that initial "Wow, wtf?" effect ASCII has when you first start to play DF, and neither are they in anyway inadequate to represent any tiles in the game.

I think they still have it, just that it is lessened a bit. Maybe a lot. In either case, it's still there.

They also have the "wtf?" effect that ASCII (usually) doesn't when used on the forums, as it seems that most people on the forums are able to look at an ASCII screen shot and be able to tell what is going on. The opposite is not as true, as has been said in this thread already, due to there being so much more (pixel/detail wise) in each tile that it overwhelms people used to the ASCII way.
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vogonpoet

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2010, 01:18:51 pm »

No tile sets here. No squares either, although I keep thinking I ought to try a square set sometime soonish, cos occasionally I get annoyed when my circular dining room looks like a stretched oval.

Full disclosure:
I am potentially biased towards ascii - been playing ADOM and occasionally other roguelikes on/off for more than a decade.

That said, I do prefer ASCII. If playing DF involved looking at a few tiles at a time, I would probably say that a graphical tileset is more pleasing to the eye, and a graphical tileset is certainly easier to learn in the first place - logs do indeed look vaguely like logs, barrels like barrels, etc.

However, playing DF does not involve looking at a few tiles at a time. It involves looking at hundreds, and once I learnt what each symbol represents, I found the ASCII views much clearer and easier to interpret than any graphical tileset. I can admire the artwork of an graphical tileset, and look at screen shots using them which look fantastic, but when I am moving around a busy fortress, I find all the detail in graphic tilesets distracting.

ASCII, IMO, is just easier to interpret, once you get the hang.

YMMV.
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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2010, 01:24:49 pm »

I'm tempted to start playing with a set though, because the black lines between the ASCII play absolute havoc with my vision if I expand the window. I close my eyes and see black-and-white lines for a while.

You could always just change the color scheme to something that is easier on the eyes.

On topic, I was a bit taken aback to how extensively Toady_One was able to use the entire ASCII matrix. I mean, seriously!?

THIS, THIS IS A FUCKING BARREL ÷

MIND BLOWN
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Raviaric

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2010, 01:28:49 pm »

ASCII player here. ASCII is the one true DF.
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Robsoie

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2010, 02:10:00 pm »

I started playing DF with ASCII only before Toady moved DF to have a Z level, i had no idea graphic sets were possible at the time.

Once i began to download and test few of them from the old wiki, i used the dystopian rethoric for lots of time, to be honest i never looked back to ASCII.

But in the end when all is a matter of taste, that's back to the famous "to each his own".
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ILikePie

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2010, 02:23:24 pm »

I can't stand tiles, and I never play any roguelike that lacks ASCII support.
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Desdichado

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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2010, 02:32:41 pm »

Again I'm not saying ASCII is worse if you happen to prefer it, just that it is a bit more difficult to "learn", and that you shouldn't say stupid things like "It's the only real way to play DF". It's really ridiculous what people can turn into elitism...

Just put it in context. The DF forums are an echo chamber consisting of ASCII diehards, keyboard-only dead-enders, and spergers that want dwarves' eyelash lengths to be tracked in-game. Nothing here represents what 90% of the actual players do or want.
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Re: Who here plays DF without sets?
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2010, 02:50:00 pm »

I use tilesets. Like a man.

 8)
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