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[Dae]

Non-zombies give off
pheromones that attract them
While zombies do not.

Is it haiku time
or a mere coincidence
that you speak this way ?

[Baron Baconeer]

Serioussly, I want to see a dwarf eating 'magic mushroom' and then entering fey mood.

...Aaand being lunatic for the rest of his pitiful life.

[Matz05]

If syndromes get expanded I can see a bustling trade in FB bloods, venoms and other fluids and much !!SCIENCE!! in finding out thier affects, both positive (supersoldier drugs, curing tonics, etc.) and negative (arrow poison, elf mug polish, etc.).


Urist McBroker: 600 dwarfbucks and not a microcline more!

Urist Mcblackmarket: ...deal.

This is 3 vials of Urist McForgottonbeast's venom.

Alchmelist -->administer extract --> Urist Mctestsubject --> aforementioned vials -->inject

<Time passes...>

Urist passes out, grows a third arm, has his hair turn green and gets minor brain damage; waking up in a day or two.

Alchmelist --> record extract info--> Urist Mcforgottonbeast venom -->"Military"

[hostergaard]

>Cough up *material*

This made me think of forts build around kittens coughing up diamonds...

Imagine a hell machine where they have waterfalls of vomit and blood to place kittens under to infect them with the Cough up *material* disease...

>Mutation

Any mutation should be permanent and remain in the genes, right?

I believe we would quickly see people intentionally mutating their dwarfs and animals to get the eight armed master race soldier.

Sounds like a whole lot of fun... 

[Rowanas]

Non-zombies give off
pheromones that attract them
While zombies do not.

Is it haiku time
or a mere coincidence
that you speak this way ?

I went through a haiku phase, but gave it up when I realised how hard it was to hold a decent argument in Haiku.

[Dae]

Alas ! you gave up.
Keep on following your dreams,
and dash through the stars !

[Rowanas]

But it is too hard
to argue properly when
your words are cut down.

[Thundercraft]

I see a lot of interesting and potentially fun (and !!!fun!!!) suggestions in this thread. I do hope to see more syndromes some day soon. In particular, I'm excited about the idea of a Transformation syndrome, Healing, and other potentially helpful or beneficial "syndromes".

Recently, I noticed on the DF Wiki the Symptoms page for DF2010:

Swelling

Effects: Impedes the ability to use affected areas. Normally fairly harmless but can cause death by suffocation if it effects the throat.

This sounds interesting. However, I think this syndrome could be more useful if the "impedes the ability to use affected areas" aspect was separate from the actual swelling. By that, I mean the same effect could be achieved by combining a simplified Swelling syndrome with the Impaired Function syndrome. Right? Or does this Swelling syndrome not (temporarily) change the size of the body part at all?

My idea of "swelling" is that it will cause the affected area to swell up larger than normal. So, for example, a bad case of swelling on a foot (such as from a bee sting - soon to be implemented) would cause it to swell to about twice the normal size.

What I'm really after, however, is a syndrome that can be used to create a magic growth potion/extract to temporarily allow an adventurer to grow to twice their normal BODY_SIZE. I just figured there should be a way of doing that with the Swelling syndrome without the added Impair Function on the whole body.

[NW_Kohaku]

Technically, isn't there already "transformations" in the form of what night creatures do?  Of course, that's a completely hardcoded thing as far as I'm aware (not that I've gone looking...), but asking for that to be put in as a raw or grouped in with syndromes seems an obvious thing.

Of course, with that said, I remember Toady mentioning how it would be "tricky" to do in all the talk before this, so perhaps it's some less than flexible code that doesn't work outside of controlled, hardcoded conditions, and that's why he's putting it in the way it is?

I remember talking about beneficial effects a few months ago, as well, and one of the things about beneficial syndromes is that you then have to control when dwarves would actually want to inflict themselves or friendlies with syndromes.  If something has a positive and negative effect, you don't want them using it in situations where the negatives outweigh the positives.

[Max White]

*AHEM*
This. Good suggestion is good, give me syndromes!

If your looking for input on any more, then I'm sure I will be back in here every two hours with something... As for a positive syndrome, I think lowering the dwarfs abilty to feel pain would be an ideal one!

[Thundercraft]

Technically, isn't there already "transformations" in the form of what night creatures do?  Of course, that's a completely hardcoded thing as far as I'm aware...

Transformations would be similar, in some respects, to the "Spouse Conversion" that Night Creatures can do. But the latter is extremely limited in what can be done with it. Also, I saw no way to use the tokens associated with this effect without affecting or being effected by Night Creatures.

Of course, with that said, I remember Toady mentioning how it would be "tricky" to do in all the talk before this, so perhaps it's some less than flexible code that doesn't work outside of controlled, hardcoded conditions, and that's why he's putting it in the way it is?

From what I understood/recall, the addition of some beneficial syndromes is still planned (eventually). But, yes, this probably would require significant time/effort.

...one of the things about beneficial syndromes is that you then have to control when dwarves would actually want to inflict themselves or friendlies with syndromes.  If something has a positive and negative effect, you don't want them using it in situations where the negatives outweigh the positives.

There already exists some methods that could be used to inflict positive syndromes. I see no reason why creatures could not inflict a positive syndrome, along with one or more negative syndrome(s). Additionally, syndromes can be inflicted with extracts obtained from plants and animals. How about a plant with an extract that can be processed into healing potions? And, darn it, I want an in-game method to regenerate a lost limb! Also, I haven't tried it yet, but wouldn't eating a plant or animal with an extract inflict the syndrome?

As for situations where an extract or creature inflicts both positive and negative effects: For the most part I'd just be happy for the existence of positive syndromes. I feel confident that modders would figure out the details and eventually find fun uses for all of them. And I have thought of some situations where a creature could inflict both positive and negative syndromes, with the negatives only outweighing the positives in certain situations (and visa versa). For instance, a creature could have naturally curative saliva, but it might also inflict some sort of Stun or Impaired Function syndromes, making the victim highly vulnerable to attack. It might even inflict nausea, emptying the stomach's contents while the creature feeds on the vomit.

[NW_Kohaku]

Let me see... there was a FotF response related to this:

Toady, where do you see the ability of players to affect AI behavior?  Will we see something that goes more towards having the ability to directly script dwarven AI to use certain items or take certain actions using some logic operations or a rudimentary scripting ability?  Or do you see this as being more a matter of dwarves having to somehow learn how and when to properly perform actions or use items from the properties they have in the raws alone?  While I'm obviously interested in the effects this can have, I'm also interested in what sort of game design philosophy you have about what level of control you want players to be exerting over their dwarves.

At the extreme end of the potion/material discussion, out beyond what maybe anybody was asking for, I'm absolutely against having to master some sort of scripting language just to get dwarves to poison their weapons.  At the same time, it'll be difficult to get dwarves to use certain exotic syndrome-causing materials in a reasonable way that satisfies a player, especially one using potion mods.  Maybe it'll end up being usage hints in the raws and classifications in-play for use in the military etc. with some sensible defaults.  Ideally they'd be able to handle it like food, water and alcohol (to the extent those aren't broken), and perhaps those would be brought into the same system.  For more exotic actions and random weirdness, maybe there are cases in the mods where you'd really want to write some kind of script down, especially for a non-dwarven mod race that does something or other, but that level of support is pretty hard to prioritize when I don't really need or want it for dwarves.

On the other hand, writing from the perspective that every command the player gives will be credited to fortress position holders, if an appropriate official were to order that a liquid, with usage hints/whatever in the raws, will now be used for something entirely outside those bounds (like coating a weapon with syrup), that action might be anything from brilliant to quirky to wasteful to tyrannical to suicidal, depending on the situation.  The dwarves aren't currently capable of judging their officials and it's a very difficult problem most of the time.  If a randomly-generated creature has a weakness to syrup, maybe coating the weapons with syrup is simply a practical strategy, and in that case syrup wouldn't have the "weapon coating" usage hint in the raws.  That coating action is entirely up to player ingenuity, much like ordering the creation of a complicated machine, and it's a reasonable thing to allow.

Manually ordering a dwarf to perform a specific series of actions that can't be presaged in the raws/code might be the only way to save your fort and might be a reasonably orderable action made by some official, but that kind of power can degrade the atmosphere we want to build.  It's going to depend on the specific cases, but for the sake of guiding discussion on a wide range of future topics, I think it's best that the player feels that a dwarf's autonomy is being respected.  The thing that makes dwarf mode not strictly a hands-off simulation is that you are allowed to compromise dwarves' autonomy if they hold fortress positions, to the extent that you are selecting actions that fall within their position's purview.  If an order typically makes it feel like the dwarves are being controlled like marionettes, forced to do things against their will, etc., the order should probably be altered or removed.  Presently, there are a ton of things that dwarves don't care about that they should care about, but this is the overall idea.

Plus, it came up in the "I, Dwarfbot" thread tangentially, too.

The problem with positive syndromes is that you then have to build some sort of means by which you can then use the syndromes.

If you have a healing potion, then the dwarves have to know that it's a thing they drink when they want to heal themselves, somehow.  The "healing" part isn't so difficult or foreign, it's the "make semi-autonomous dwarves drink their potion if and when it is appropriate, without wasting them all drinking them when it isn't appropriate, plus being able to tell the difference between a pure healing potion and a healing potion that also happens to give you lung cancer or something, and as such, shouldn't be taken except in extreme cases".

[Neonivek]

Fine I guess I can do my famos lists, and by famos I mean not famos.

New Syndrome effects
-Discoloration: A bodypart changes color be it an internal organ, the skin, or the blood. at low power it tints and at high it outright rewrites the color. This is a secondary effect as it is relatively harmless. (Vomit color can also be changed)
-Insanity(Phantoms): At low intensity the infected hears and occasional sound or sees an occasional shadow (lowering mood), at high intensity they believe they are being attacked by phantom creatures (Causing Brain Damage).
-Wounds(Phantom): A phantom illness that doesn't exist in the natural world. Those infected by it suffer occasional superficial wounds with the severity deciding how many and how painful these wounds really are.
-Shakes: The sufferer has occasional shakes with increasing frequency according to its severity. It harms coarse motor skills and makes fine movement almost impossible.
-Metabolism boost: The suffer's metabolism is accelerated to a great degree giving them boundless energy and vitality but their need for food and water increases.
-Sleeping Spell: The need for sleep increases. At high severity the sufferer falls into a sleeplike coma.
-Recovery Smack: Wounds never seem to heal and cuts never seal back up without medical attention.
-Ostioperosis: The Bones thin. At high severity they become brittle enough that they can even break from ordinary movement.
-Dehydration: The need for water increases. Easily quenched at low severity but death dealing at high severity.
-Unsatiable: Food doesn't provide a lot of substanance. At low severity the suffer may lose weight, at High severity the suffer dies of malnutritian.
-Rage: The sufferer rages more often. At high severity they go mad with rage.
-Manic: The sufferer is more happy. At high severity they can even fall into a stupor and can no longer function properly.

I guess that is all I will put for now

[Thundercraft]

The problem with positive syndromes is that you then have to build some sort of means by which you can then use the syndromes.

If you have a healing potion, then the dwarves have to know that it's a thing they drink when they want to heal themselves, somehow.  The "healing" part isn't so difficult or foreign, it's the "make semi-autonomous dwarves drink their potion if and when it is appropriate, without wasting them all drinking them when it isn't appropriate, plus being able to tell the difference between a pure healing potion and a healing potion that also happens to give you lung cancer or something, and as such, shouldn't be taken except in extreme cases".

Ah! Now I understand what you mean. Yes, those are complex issues. Definitely, some strategic thinking would be involved to do it right.

Maybe it'll end up being usage hints in the raws and classifications in-play for use in the military etc. with some sensible defaults.  Ideally they'd be able to handle it like food, water and alcohol (to the extent those aren't broken), and perhaps those would be brought into the same system.

This sounds like a reasonable approach to implement positive syndromes. Once several default categories are created, the framework might allow it to be expanded on later.

Honestly, when I was thinking of positive syndromes I was mostly thinking of creature attacks and using it in Adventure Mode. With creatures, it seems comparatively straightforward: Creature attacks dwarf (or other playable race) and the syndrome(s) may or may not be inflicted. (I was thinking of raising certain un-tamed creatures with a healing saliva in pits just to heal my dwarves post battle. I'd order an injured dwarf to go pull a lever in the pit or something.) And in Adventure Mode, the player has direct control over their character and could simply give the command to drink the liquid.

Those situations are quite different than having, say, a healing potion or cure poison vial created in Fortress Mode and making it useful. As you point out, for that dwarves would need to know what it is used for, in what situations it should be used (having a vital organ or limb in critical condition or being afflicted by a certain poison), etc.

PS:

...being able to tell the difference between a pure healing potion and a healing potion that also happens to give you lung cancer or something, and as such, shouldn't be taken except in extreme cases.

Intentionally or not, you implied that dwarves might need different categorization for potions (to take into account things such as potion rarity, potion potency, risk in usage, etc). I like that idea. Ideally, a number would be specified to denote priority. Perhaps 0 to 20 for common categories like health potions, strength booster (adrenaline boost?), berzerker rage, etc.?

[NW_Kohaku]

Intentionally or not, you implied that dwarves might need different categorization for potions (to take into account things such as potion rarity, potion potency, risk in usage, etc). I like that idea. Ideally, a number would be specified to denote priority. Perhaps 0 to 20 for common categories like health potions, strength booster (adrenaline boost?), berzerker rage, etc.?

Actually, that was part of a discussion that involved preliminary talk about alchemy as well as merely talk about dwarven autonomy.  And yes, things like drugs that caused berserker rage and such did come up.

What was discussed wasn't some priority number, but a "pharmacy" system to keep dwarves from raiding the medicine chest to OD on happy pills instead of doing work.  It also discussed means of building a dwarven AI scripting system, where they would only take drugs under certain pre-scripted conditions designated by the player in-game, rather than by inferring use off of the raws.  (This is why it got around to conversations about coating your axes with syrup because it is the only way to kill a waffle titan.)

I've been meaning to make a thread on all this after I'm done writing the Improved Farming one, but... well... I'm still writing.