Topic: 31.10 weapons (Read 24350 times)

absynthe7 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 12, 2010, 09:36:20 am »

Has anyone tested warhammers against leather armor? I seem to remember before 0.31 came out, Toady was talking about how leather should provide better protection against blunt weapons than metal armor, but that might not have made it into the final release.

Rask · « **Reply #31 on:** July 12, 2010, 10:45:16 am »

Yes. It doesn't help. It doesn't help even in combination with steel.

TomiTapio · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:55:28 am »

Hey all. I just did some arena testing of how crap elven wooden sword and spear are.
Or how great robes and cloaks are. I have *spreadsheets*!

The wooden sword puniness got my attention in elf sword adventurer fight.
So I set up an arena, with 11 "skilled swordsman elves" using larch long swords and some fiber clothes (no shoes).

I imported log into OpenOffice spreadsheet so can separate into sortable columns at comma and '. Before import, I texteditor-replaced "through" into ",through". Also ",in the".

255 instances of cloth deflecting an attack and 65 instances of damage getting through cloth.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

jimi12 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 13, 2010, 01:20:59 pm »

I haven't seen anything about spears here. I just got an artifact platinum spear and I was hoping to see how well spears were doing in the latest version.

cephalo · « **Reply #34 on:** July 13, 2010, 01:48:00 pm »

If I had seen this thread first I would have posted it here, but here are some test results from the arena.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61401.0

An interesting result is that copper picks are better against armor than steel axes.

Mysteriousbluepuppet · « **Reply #35 on:** July 13, 2010, 01:49:22 pm »

I would also like to know if pick are a viable weapons in this version. My milliatia commander apparently likes them, and so i would like to know if they are at least mildly effective or should I swtch him to something else ?

Mysteriousbluepuppet · « **Reply #36 on:** July 13, 2010, 01:50:09 pm »

Quote from: cephalo on July 13, 2010, 01:48:00 pm

If I had seen this thread first I would have posted it here, but here are some test results from the arena.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61401.0

An interesting result is that copper picks are better against armor than steel axes.

Should have checked before posting then

I'll take that as a vote for the picks

jimi12 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2010, 06:56:51 pm »

Fists are WAY too powerful in the new version. I had a goblin punch through my full steel armor dwarf and jammed his rib through his lung. The goblin was stripped of all weapons and my dwarf had a spear.

TomiTapio · « **Reply #38 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:26:27 pm »

I just ran four more arena-into-spreadsheet tests for you to read and ponder.

(I imported log into OpenOffice spreadsheet so can separate into sortable columns at comma and '. Before import, I texteditor-replaced "through" into ",through". Also ",in the".)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spectre · « **Reply #39 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm »

It would be quite useful to understand the usage of all of the weapons in the middleages.
I just read all articles on the weapons on wikipedia, but they are a bit vague on the effectivness against each other/armor.

What I got was:

Close quarter combat: maces, hammers, short swords and axes.
Maces are used against "light" metal armor like chainmail. The brute force practicaly allows armor to be ignored to an extent as it just transfers the velocity of the attack. That makes maces on of the most common weapons in the middle-age after heavy metal armor was introduced. Also maces are a slight more effectiv against unarmored flesh then the hammer. One major advantage of the mace as opposed to the axe or hammer is that it doesnt matter with which side you hit. An axe has only one blade as does a hammer only has one flat side. So a mace is more easy to controle in close combat, thus needing lesser skill.
Hammers can develop more brute force than maces, but needs more skill. They were developed as the armor got even more resistant. A hammer practicaly allows to smash in heads even if there is a (good) helmet in the way. So the tactic would be to doge a hammer and avoid beeing hit (or block) since I would imagine them slower and more difficult to handle then a mace. That would grant lightly armored opponens an advantage.

Since we dont have longswords: Short swords are just cutting weapons most efficient against un- or only slightly armored opponents (leather armor). They rely on dealing mortal injuries like open arteries. If you get through to your oponent, you can kill them fastest with a sword as you can just slash away on him and he has a good chance of dieing if he lets himself getting hit.
Short swords should be used in combination with a shield, as they are close quarter weapons, like the mace, the axe and some hammers. And you can use a shield quicker than you are able to dodge if you are armored. And if you are not armored, a shield doesnt hurt either.

The battle-axe is basicaly a sword and a mace combined. You still have the huge velocity of the mace (you can make the head as heavy as you want after all) while simmultaniously having a shape blade that might even cut through (light) metal armor and deal deadly slashes like the sword.
Interestingly, after the introducion of the sword, the warriors of the middle-age dumped them in favor of the sword, and later maces to conter the newly invented metal armor.
So I would guess they where kind of hard to controle in battle and not as effective against armor as a mace.

Medium quarter combat: Halberts, pikes and spears.
Halberts and pikes rely on their lenght. So medium quarter combat is a plus, close quarter combat is a minus. Also pikes are longer (by far) than Halberts.
Spears are just shorter pikes, comparable in lenght to a halbert.
Halberts are weaker than pikes, but have an axe-like blade at the ending. They are somewhat a bastadisation of an axe and a pike, beeing not as great as the specific weapon in its specialised field but not as bad outside of it either.
Pikes, spears and halberts should not be used in combination with a shield, they hinder you and since the trick is not to let the enemy near you, you hopfully wont need it (Real live soldiers had some side arm weapon like a sword, mace or dagger in case the enemy got too close, and maybe a buckler).
Pikes and halberts were the most commonly used weapon in large infantery companys. But you need disciplin and the ability to hold formation to be realy supperior (something dwarves do not have). Non the less, you should still be careful in a one-on-one combat with a skilled pike wielding enemy.
I guess pikes are not as effectiv agains heavy armor as a halbert, and both are not as effectiv as a mace. But if you dont let them near you, you can just stab them down. There is some placed bound to let the weapon through (joints, face).

Large quarter combat: Crossbows.
I will do crossbows tommorow if no one else does it. But I remember that they where invented quite late, and that they could punch a hole through armor quite easily. And they were used in large squats since you could used poorly trained soldiers. One would hit the enemy and the rest didnt matter. Crossbows where quite easy to make, too (simmilar to pikes or spears btw).
So they were looked down on by figures like the pope. It was considered 'unfair' that a poorly trained crossbowman could kill a knight with a lifetime of training.
Bows and crossbows would also be the way to go against pikes, spears or halberts, since those are hard to get close to if you know how to use 'em, thus negating all efforts made with the 'close quarter weapons'
Well what do you say. I wrote a section about crossbows nevertheless. So this section gets a headline too.

Additionaly:
Picks.

Quote from: cephalo on July 13, 2010, 02:48:14 pm

If you think about mining picks, it's pretty much impossible to design a hand held simple tool that can put more force behind a small contact area. Its designed to bust rocks, so it's easy to imagine that no armor could be made that would slow it down in any way. You can't make a more powerful weapon than a mining pick.

The issue, and this is one that is not modeled in DF at all I don't think, is that mining picks are so heavy and unwealdy that you couldn't possibly defend yourself while holding one. When you are up against a rock wall that's not fighting back, all you care about is power. When you're up against an armed enemy, you need both a speedy attack that is difficult to evade and also the mobility to counter enemy attacks.

If you tried to hit some random anyone off the street with a mining pick, even the clumsiest most untrained individual would probably be able to side step it.

It seems to me that the game is trying to model only the force of the weapon, which if you do that right, would make it easily the most powerful.

Quote from: Simmura McCrea on July 13, 2010, 03:48:36 pm

Warhammer. Like a pick, but smaller. (Removed the link to wikipedia)

NRN_R_Sumo1 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:25:57 pm »

Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm

textwall

A battle axe is nothing like a sword/mace.. and a war hammer is nothing like you seem to think, you are thinking of a warhammer like a sledge hammer.
If anything the unweildyness of a battleaxe would make them much closer to the "mini sledge" you are picturing.

Halberds are not weaker than pikes by any means, a halberd is a terrifying weapon.. while a pike is nothing more than a moveable barbed wire fence when the soldiers are in formation, and their main use was against cavalry.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The back end of the halberd can be used to grab a shoulder, or neck, or limb, while puncturing the flesh of a lightly armored opponent, while you might rely on thrusts to deal with heavier armored foes, and swings of the large blade to keep them at bay.

Differant weapons have been developed for differant purposes.

Lightning4 · « **Reply #41 on:** July 14, 2010, 01:01:46 am »

For all the strength of blunt against most other foes, it is BRUTALLY ineffective against a bronze colossus (and most likely most other types of inorganic fun).

I geared up six fully grandmaster dwarves with adamantine armor and slade warhammers.
THEY LOST.

It would appear that blunt is rather inefficient at damaging a creature of solid metal, who would have thought.

It did lose its hands though, so it would appear the cumulative damage is taking effect, it's just doing so really, really slowly.

Rask · « **Reply #42 on:** July 14, 2010, 01:44:32 am »

As a side note, copper picks seem ineffective against bronze colossi. Steel ones work fine.

Spectre · « **Reply #43 on:** July 14, 2010, 06:42:26 am »

Quote from: NRN_R_Sumo1 on July 13, 2010, 11:25:57 pm

Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
textwall

A battle axe is nothing like a sword/mace.. and a war hammer is nothing like you seem to think, you are thinking of a warhammer like a sledge hammer.
If anything the unweildyness of a battleaxe would make them much closer to the "mini sledge" you are picturing.

Halberds are not weaker than pikes by any means, a halberd is a terrifying weapon.. while a pike is nothing more than a moveable barbed wire fence when the soldiers are in formation, and their main use was against cavalry.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The back end of the halberd can be used to grab a shoulder, or neck, or limb, while puncturing the flesh of a lightly armored opponent, while you might rely on thrusts to deal with heavier armored foes, and swings of the large blade to keep them at bay.

Differant weapons have been developed for differant purposes.

The articles in wikipedia are illustrated very sufficient, thank you. Please remember that I was partly picturing how those weapons could/should be in DF. Balance is a concern here.
I talked about warhammers beeing hard to handle in comparison to a mace. I even elaborated why.

Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm

One major advantage of the mace as opposed to the axe or hammer is that it doesnt matter with which side you hit. An axe has only one blade as does a hammer only has one flat side. So a mace is more easy to controle in close combat, thus needing lesser skill.

Also: If the warhammer has more velocity then a mace, it is bound to have a heavier head.

The statment of halberts beeing weaker than pikes should not be taken out of context.

Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm

Halberts are weaker than pikes, but have an axe-like blade at the ending. They are somewhat a bastadisation of an axe and a pike, beeing not as great as the specific weapon in its specialised field but not as bad outside of it either.

Please remember, I am still talking about how to use those weapons in DF.

Also: There is at the moment only a spear as a weapon in DF. But I thought it would give a better understanding to illustrate the two most commonly used forms of 'spear weapons'. Maybe the will get added sometime?

I didn't talk about the spike on a halbert or on a warhammer, because they aren't there in DF. And if they were, it would not affect the general specialisation of the weapon. Only how Toady would have to calculate damage (give the warhammer a 25% chance for piercing damge or whatnot).

It is important to understand the thing if you want to moddle it into a game. That was all.

TomiTapio · « **Reply #44 on:** July 14, 2010, 08:46:32 am »

Now I tested whips and basic copper swords vs. steel gear. 20-dorf free-for-alls. Oh the dwarfenity!
I hope Toady reads this.

Edit: copper battle axe too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Author Topic: 31.10 weapons (Read 24350 times)

absynthe7

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Rask

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TomiTapio

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jimi12

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cephalo

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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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jimi12

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TomiTapio

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Spectre

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NRN_R_Sumo1

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Lightning4

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Rask

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Spectre

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TomiTapio

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