Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Topace3k]

Awesome. I noticed one thing though, bolts are insanely deadly. Copper bolts tear through "blue metal" armor like butter. Sure this is supposed to happen?

And yet they're entirely incapable of finishing off even unarmored creatures, no matter how many you fire.  A strange quandary.

Also, punches and weak blunt weapons (such as crossbows used in melee) still take absolute ages to kill unarmored opponents, not even going to try it against armor.  Sometimes it seems like they won't even kill them- the cumulative damage change leads to more "yellow" and "red" injuries, but does not actually allow even entirely disabled creatures to bleed out or otherwise be finished off by such attacks.

Edit:  I spoke too soon on the bolts/arrows- they do occasionally cause some kills, but they do cause very little bleeding.    It seems that head/heart/lungshots are the key.  Heartshots work too.

[Rumrusher]

wait X button goes into your build mode?!?
oh.

[G-Flex]

Also, punches and weak blunt weapons (such as crossbows used in melee) still take absolute ages to kill unarmored opponents, not even going to try it against armor.  Sometimes it seems like they won't even kill them- the cumulative damage change leads to more "yellow" and "red" injuries, but does not actually allow even entirely disabled creatures to bleed out or otherwise be finished off by such attacks.

Perhaps there's a lack of internal bleeding (and other similar effects) screwing things up?

Edit:  I spoke too soon on the bolts/arrows- they do occasionally cause some kills, but they do cause very little bleeding.    It seems that headshots are the key.

Maybe this is a contact area problem: The game really doesn't have a way (as far as I know) to represent a piercing object with a fine point (i.e. a very small initial contact area) that results in a larger wound (e.g. an arrowhead, which pierces at a fine point but is wedge-shaped to create a wound larger than that point). Perhaps they're acting like puncture wounds at this point, hence the lack of bleeding and severe injury?



I'm going to do more testing at some point, but maybe not tonight. Not sure yet.

[Toady One]

Edit: It seems that headshots are the key.

Aiming is becoming more and more of the problem now, which is a good thing, because that's an unadded feature on the dev page rather than a bug.  There's still a lot to do, though, especially with internal bleeding/tenderizing.  Stuck-in bolts still slow bleeding a bit, so you don't get real trouble unless you hit an artery/heart etc, which I think they get shafted on because of their new low contact area (which is what helps them get through metal armor/etc., since it is dividing down the small numbers properly now).  Not sure how much that should change.  Maybe artery strikes should be more common, but people in real-life can survive those kinds of injuries for hours/days, depending on what got stuck.  The crossbows used in melee are a particular problem that I didn't get too -- I think they are the size of a fist or two, or something, which makes them pretty lame, and their other melee numbers are probably bad as well.  But a lot of the items are still screwed up.  This certainly isn't meant as the final combat fix release.  Far from it.

[Dwarfu]

Haven't filed a big report yet, but might want to look at fire attacks (I'm assuming).  May be luck of the draw, but a group of ettins vs a group of giants vs a group of dragons vs a group of cyclopes = giants win with only one loss; however all of them had their entire body's fat layers burned off, their teeth and ribs were burned, but no other tissue layers were affected (in their z status screen anyways).

Also, the errorlog shows:
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
MUSCLE: hole-skipped, still attached

[Diablous]

Hurray!

[existent]

So, does this mean axes aren't entirely overpowered now? 'Tis a shame, they were such a Dwarfy weapon. As I'm reading that crossbows are more stop and less kill, I guess it's on to hammers!

[Topace3k]

Edit: It seems that headshots are the key.

Aiming is becoming more and more of the problem now, which is a good thing, because that's an unadded feature on the dev page rather than a bug.  There's still a lot to do, though, especially with internal bleeding/tenderizing.  Stuck-in bolts still slow bleeding a bit, so you don't get real trouble unless you hit an artery/heart etc, which I think they get shafted on because of their new low contact area (which is what helps them get through metal armor/etc., since it is dividing down the small numbers properly now).  Not sure how much that should change.  Maybe artery strikes should be more common, but people in real-life can survive those kinds of injuries for hours/days, depending on what got stuck.  The crossbows used in melee are a particular problem that I didn't get too -- I think they are the size of a fist or two, or something, which makes them pretty lame, and their other melee numbers are probably bad as well.  But a lot of the items are still screwed up.  This certainly isn't meant as the final combat fix release.  Far from it.

As someone else said, it may be that the damage caused by the depth of the wound caused by bolts/arrows is ill-represented.  However, they do seem to cause a great deal of pain and can disable opponents quickly, which makes them useful even if they fail to find the heart or brain. 

I've noticed a few dwarves fighting with crossbows able to at least cause fatal head-trauma with crossbow bashing, which is heartening.  I still think it would be cool to add some abstracted internal bleeding through the bruising caused by repeated battering, so even if organs aren't obliterated a proper beat-down can still lead to death, as it would in reality.

Keep up the great work Toady!

[smjjames]

Haven't filed a big report yet, but might want to look at fire attacks (I'm assuming).  May be luck of the draw, but a group of ettins vs a group of giants vs a group of dragons vs a group of cyclopes = giants win with only one loss; however all of them had their entire body's fat layers burned off, their teeth and ribs were burned, but no other tissue layers were affected (in their z status screen anyways).

Also, the errorlog shows:
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SKIN: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
FAT: hole-skipped, still attached
SCALE: hole-skipped, still attached
MUSCLE: hole-skipped, still attached

I wonder if those errors are 'normal' in the sense that the pathing errors we get in the errorlog are normal? Otherwise, wierd.

[alxnotorious]

Aw, the arsenal dwarf is gone? I liked having something that regulated the weapons and armor when it was being changed.

[smjjames]

Aw, the arsenal dwarf is gone? I liked having something that regulated the weapons and armor when it was being changed.

It ended up being a case of TOO much regulation and berueracuracy.

[Rumrusher]

So, does this mean axes aren't entirely overpowered now? 'Tis a shame, they were such a Dwarfy weapon. As I'm reading that crossbows are more stop and less kill, I guess it's on to hammers!

you can use your axe for butchering still wonder what else we can do other than polish stones and chop up things hidden in this version.

[existent]

It ended up being a case of TOO much regulation and berueracuracy.

berueacuracy

I think "accuracy" is the farthest thing from what was going on.

[tfaal]

I think something went wrong with the mac download. All I know is, there's an exe in it, and that just ain't right.

[slink]

Has anyone else gotten a crash with the Windows SDL version using a save from 31.08?  I don't know what caused it.  I was just looking around after having been playing for about half an hour, and it went boom.  I saved the Microsoft report file but I don't know if that would help.

Edit:  I attempted to reproduce the crash and was not successful.  However, the event that occurred at about the correct time was a strange mood.

Edit #2: I did finally reproduce this and it was the bug related to burrows without areas, which has apparently existed for some time now.  I did a full set of experiments and reported on it in the appropriate thread on the Mantis Bug Forum.