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Author Topic: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged  (Read 6751 times)

Heron TSG

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2010, 10:03:24 am »

Don't be surprised if every European country is disengaging.
I would be extremely surprised at that, considering that the mutual defense pact was part of N.A.T.O.. Iraq, I could see, but I doubt that our allies will pull out of Afghanistan, where they're bound by a treaty.
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Phmcw

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2010, 10:21:37 am »

It's happening, right now.
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Britain-Decides-to-Withdraw-Troops-from-Volatile-Afghan-Region-97943759.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6833225.ece
And several UK official face charge over tortures allegations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7870049.stm

No, your policies aren't well accepted in Europa, and the treatise are the only reason why there is still European troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Nikov

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2010, 12:12:52 pm »

You didn't even read the first link before you posted it, did you?
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Phmcw

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2010, 12:20:30 pm »

Yes I did, but they are just trying to calm the population, and hope that a lower body-count will do the trick.
The reason why they are doing this is that this war is really unpopular.
The reason why is unpopular is that nobody think that we are doing  good job there.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2010, 02:36:58 pm »

Yes I did, but they are just trying to calm the population, and hope that a lower body-count will do the trick.
The reason why they are doing this is that this war is really unpopular.
The reason why is unpopular is that nobody think that we are doing  good job there.

How are we not doing a good job? This is an honest question, I really want to know, because I keep hearing people say it, but if I look at statistics we're clearly doing well (although we do have some operational screw-ups, and that's not just the one that this thread is about), and if I look at the videos of Iraqi citizens lining up in hundreds under terrorist mortar fire to vote for the first democratic election of a president while Coalition forces hold down the fort...

Makes me proud, really, that we're able to do these things for these people. At what cost to ourselves, though, is the real concern.
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Strife26

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2010, 02:53:15 pm »

Compared to every other attempt to do something similar, the Coalition is doing astoundingly well.

See the British and Soviet Invasions of Afghanistan for comparison.
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Nikov

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2010, 02:57:33 pm »

Yes I did, but they are just trying to calm the population, and hope that a lower body-count will do the trick.
The reason why they are doing this is that this war is really unpopular.
The reason why is unpopular is that nobody think that we are doing  good job there.

No, they're pretty clearly cycling out an exhausted unit for fresh troops. Its called a relief-in-place.
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Phmcw

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2010, 02:59:14 pm »

Source wikipedia
"The number of refugees estimated abroad was 2 million (a number close to CIA projections[66]) and the number of internally displaced people was 2.7 million.[67] In 2007, Iraq's anti-corruption board reported that 35% of Iraqi children, or about five million children, were orphans.[68] The Red Cross stated in March 2008 that Iraq's humanitarian situation remained among the most critical in the world, with millions of Iraqis forced to rely on insufficient and poor-quality water sources"

"The US government has long maintained its involvement there is with the support of the Iraqi people, but in 2005 when asked directly, 82–87% of the Iraqi populace was opposed to the US occupation and wanted US troops to leave. 47% of Iraqis supported attacking US troops.A March 7, 2007 survey of more than 2,000 Iraqis found that 78% of the population opposed the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq, that 69% believed the presence of U.S. forces is making things worse, and that 51% of the population considered attacks on coalition forces acceptable, up from 17% in 2004 and 35% in 2006."
"Malnutrition rates have risen from 19% before the US-led invasion to a national average of 28% four years later"

Great job indeed.

Did I mention "The financial cost of the war has been more than £4.5 billion ($9 billion) to the UK,[276] and over $845 billion to the U.S., with the total cost to the U.S. economy estimated at $3 trillion"

My, yes I'm sure it's not a threat to your economy.

Edit : I forgot to back up my claim on lack of public support in the UK : "Majorities in the UK and Canada believe the war in Iraq is "unjustified" and - in the UK - are critical of their government's support of US policies in Iraq (Canada opposed the U.S.-led invasion force and has one observer blue helmet in Iraq.)[4]"

Edit 2: Well, it's better in Afghanistan, at least about public relation: "According to a May 2009 BBC poll, 69% of Afghans surveyed thought it was at least mostly good that the U.S. military came in to remove the Taliban – a decrease from 87% of Afghans surveyed in 2005. 24% thought it was mostly or very bad – up from 9% in 2005. The poll indicated that 63% of Afghans were at least somewhat supportive of a U.S. military presence in the country – down from 78% in 2005. Just 18% supported increasing the U.S. military's presence, while 44% favored reducing it. 90% of Afghans surveyed opposed the presence of Taliban fighters, including 70% who were strongly opposed. By an 82%–4% margin, people said they preferred the current government to Taliban rule."

But not for drug production : "In 2000, the Taliban had issued a ban on opium production, which led to reductions in Pashtun Mafia opium production by as much as 90%. Soon after the 2001 U.S. led invasion of Afghanistan, however, opium production increased markedly.[301] By 2005, Afghanistan had regained its position as the world’s #1 opium producer and was producing 90% of the world’s opium, most of which is processed into heroin and sold in Europe and Russia.[302] Afghan opium kills 100,000 people every year worldwide.[303]

While U.S. and allied efforts to combat the drug trade have been stepped up, the effort is hampered by the fact that many suspected drug traffickers are now top officials in the Karzai governmen"

And for your allies ? (and yourselves)
"International public opinion is largely opposed to the war in Afghanistan. A 47-nation global survey of public opinion conducted in June 2007 by the Pew Global Attitudes Project found considerable opposition to the U.S. and NATO military operations in Afghanistan. In only 2 out of the 47 countries was there a majority that favoured keeping military troops in Afghanistan - Israel (59%) and Kenya (60%).[1] On the other hand, in 41 of the 47 countries pluralities want U.S. and NATO military troops out of Afghanistan as soon as possible"
"While support for the war in Afghanistan continues to be strongest in the U.S. and Israel,[9][202] recent polls have also shown growing opposition in the U.S., including majority opposition.[368]

A Washington Post - ABC poll conducted July 15–18, 2009 found that just half of Americans, 51%, think the war in Afghanistan is worth fighting, while nearly half, 45%, think the war in Afghanistan is not worth fighting - a statistical tie within the poll's ±3 point margin of error.[226][227][228] The American public is also closely divided on whether the United States is making significant progress toward winning the war, with 46% thinking so and 42% not.[227]

An Associated Press - GfK poll conducted July 16–20, 2009 found that the majority 53% of Americans oppose the war in Afghanistan, while 44% support it. It furthermore found that the plurality of Americans, 34%, strongly opposed the war in Afghanistan, while only 20% strongly favored it. (Another 19% somewhat opposed the war in Afghanistan, 20% somewhat favored it, and 3% did not know or declined to answer.)[212][213][214]

A CNN - Opinion Research poll conducted July 31 - August 3, 2009 also found that most Americans now oppose the U.S. war in Afghanistan. In a new low in American public support for the war, 54% of Americans said they opposed the U.S. war, while only 41% supported it.[200][201]

Following the August 20, 2009 election in Afghanistan that was characterized by widespread lack of security and massive fraud, and capping off the two deadliest months for U.S. troops in the 8-year war, the CNN - Opinion Research poll conducted August 28–31, 2009 registered the highest level of opposition to the U.S. war in Afghanistan the poll has yet seen. A majority 57% of Americans now oppose the U.S. war in Afghanistan, while only 42% still support it"
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 07:02:24 pm by Phmcw »
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Heron TSG

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2010, 08:24:36 pm »



Source wikipedia

A Washington Post - ABC poll conducted July 15–18, 2009 found that just half of Americans, 51%, think the war in Afghanistan is worth fighting, while nearly half, 45%, think the war in Afghanistan is not worth fighting - a statistical tie within the poll's ±3 point margin of error.[226][227][228] The American public is also closely divided on whether the United States is making significant progress toward winning the war, with 46% thinking so and 42% not.[227]
I question your facts. I didn't vote for them.

Anyway, what would you have us do? Abandon those countries? How long do you think they would last?
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2010, 08:38:03 pm »

Quote
How long do you think they would last?

That's precisedly the point. They wont last.


My bet? This whole fiasco is going to end up just like the soviet attempt at the same did.
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Nikov

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2010, 08:39:30 pm »

Is this a refutation of what I said or just a rant? I really can't be arsed to read your copy-paste derail attempt.

Back on subject; what he did was both in principle and in practice damaging to the war effort and further endangered his fellow servicemen. As much as I do respect that such accidents should not happen in war, plastering images of such accidents across the world media might salt one wound but only open a dozen more. The opposing force does not measure victory in ground or materiel, but news headlines and public opinion polls. This soldier's action did more to damage stability in the region than the event itself. Outside of the village or the relatives of those killed, this incident could never have been known about save through internal military channels, who would have punished the pilots had they acted contrary to the ROE. They did not, and are not tried. However the soldier is doing nothing short of distributing the enemy's propaganda for them through this video. And while freedom of information is a fine sentiment in peacetime, this particular sort of information creates a hundred more insurgents. Insurgents who get killed. Now tell me, is it worth a hundred more dead insurgents and one or two NATO troops that you, sitting at your computer half a world away, can see a video proving what you already knew; that war is a horrible thing? That mistakes happen? That our enemies neither wear uniforms nor mark their vehicles, thus causing a lot of collateral damage among their population? That they do this deliberately, because accidents like these are great for bolstering their numbers?

Of course its not. And thats why they'll have him rot in Leavenworth.

FakeEdit: Abandoning Afghanistan right now would send the country into an absolute bloodbath. Anyone who cooperated with the Coalition troops would be murdered by death squads. You would see mass exodus, tribal warfare, and very likely Pakistan would see a lot more blood and ash. Speaking of which...

I know something you don't know.

But being a patriotic and honor-bound sort of fellow, I'm not telling.
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nenjin

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2010, 08:43:36 pm »

All I know is...

If we spend billions every year on military hardware...and have satellites that can read the brand name on a golf ball from space....

Our soldiers should have gunnery cameras that can zoom well enough to identify a camera versus a assault rifle.

And the training to know the difference and care about it. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 08:46:33 pm by nenjin »
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Heron TSG

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2010, 08:44:56 pm »

Quote
How long do you think they would last?

That's precisedly the point. They wont last.

My bet? This whole fiasco is going to end up just like the soviet attempt at the same did.
Genghis Khan failed, Alexander the Great failed, the Soviets failed, and Trajan's Roman Legions failed. Afghanistan has the best track record of resisting invasion of any country, I'll wager.

All I know is...

If we spend billions everywhere on military hardware...and have satellites that can read the brand name on a golf ball from space....

Our soldiers should have gunnery cameras that can zoom well enough to identify a camera versus a assault rifle.

And the training to know the difference and care about it. 
Also, they would need to have reflexes fast enough to zoom in and check before they would get shot, if it happened to be a gun.
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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2010, 08:48:46 pm »

FakeEdit: Abandoning Afghanistan right now would send the country into an absolute bloodbath. Anyone who cooperated with the Coalition troops would be murdered by death squads. You would see mass exodus, tribal warfare, and very likely Pakistan would see a lot more blood and ash. Speaking of which...

I know something you don't know.

But being a patriotic and honor-bound sort of fellow, I'm not telling.

Cool not-story bro.  I'm sure your wondrous revelation would be a great boon to the world, what a pity you won't share it.

I know something you apparently don't want to admit.  That bloodbath that will happen when the American army leaves Afghanistan?  Yeah, of course that will happen.  And if we keep a million soldiers in Afghanistan for a hundred years, it'll still happen when they leave.  The only way to avoid that post-withdrawal bloodbath is to leave the army there until the end of time.

Fuck Afghanistan.  It's going to be a hellhole when America leaves no matter when that happens, so lets stop pissing money and lives down the hellhole now instead of later.  Same for most of our other deployments around the world.  Thousands of soldiers each in Cold War legacy garrisons like Okinawa, Iceland, Greece, and a shitload of other places in absolutely no strategic danger.  Thousands more soldiers guarding oil-soaked potentates around Arabia like Qatar and Oman, that have essentially no real military of their own because they know America will come running to their rescue in a heartbeat, no questions asked, no money down.

Everybody always bitches about wanting to reduce foreign aid; let those primitive other countries pay their own bills.  Direct foreign aid accounts for less that 1% of the federal budget.  Military protection of "allies" who have absolutely no intention of protecting themselves is a good half of the military's outlay, maybe 10% of the budget.  But fuck no, we cannot, will not, and must not admit that we are anything less than the ironclad pillar of whatever we're calling the Free World today, and God knows we'll never wise up to the fact that leaving an unwinnable shitstorm means nothing.
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nenjin

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Re: U.S. Soldier who leaked war video + other documents charged
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2010, 08:49:13 pm »

Quote
lso, they would need to have reflexes fast enough to zoom in and check before they would get shot, if it happened to be a gun.

Flying 75 feet above the action, with enough time to talk to their superiors, get the firing order and tell each other to shut up and shoot? That sounds like plenty of time to twist the knob and zoom in on the guy you're about to shred. They almost did a half rotation of the suspected insurgents before they decided they were a threat.

And the reason this video was classified was them gunning down the relief vehicle with a kid inside. That's clear evidence of opening fire on non-coms without justification, other than the fact they just killed 8 guys who they thought were combatants, and turned out not to be. It's one mistake compacted by another tragic mistake. Argue classified info or not, the military is pulling rank to cover it's ass as always. I feel better knowing this video got out there. It's the only way the military even comes close to accountability.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 08:54:15 pm by nenjin »
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