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[Double A]

I don't think forging swords is a complicated science.

[MaximumZero]

Really depends on the complexity and type of sword, as well as craftsmanship. There are several swordsmiths who use liquid nitrogen vapor to quench the heated blades, as well as thermal polishing. On top of that, you still have to know the exact temperatures to heat and cool the metal to or you make it brittle or scorch it or it just becomes scrap in general, or it's not as strong and flexible as it could be.

But sure, if you're making low quality stuff, it's not complicated at all, provided you're not doing any advanced metallurgy.

[Double A]

Or, you could do what sane people do, and take a block of iron and smack it with a hammer against an anvil with a hammer, periodically reheating it so you don't break the sword.

Surprisingly, this is what dwarves also do. You'd think they WOULD do the liquid nitrogen process, but even THEY are sane enough to do it the normal way.

[G-Flex]

I don't think forging swords is a complicated science.

Yes, it is.

Or, you could do what sane people do, and take a block of iron and smack it with a hammer against an anvil with a hammer, periodically reheating it so you don't break the sword.

Surprisingly, this is what dwarves also do. You'd think they WOULD do the liquid nitrogen process, but even THEY are sane enough to do it the normal way.

No, that's not what sane people do, because forging a sword is a hell of a lot more complicated than "heat iron, smack with hammer, repeat".

You're betraying an extreme lack of knowledge regarding metallurgy here. How much you heat the metal, or cool it, or by which process, or how much you work the metal, can and do affect its properties, especially ferrous materials. A decent swordsmith doesn't just heat up a chunk of iron/steel and whack it until it's the right shape. And that's not even considering steel.

Well, what would be the effect on an edged weapon if you electroplated it? I'm not so up on my science. I just swing the swords, I don't make them.

Pretty much nothing, since electroplating is microscopic. The plating would scrape off pretty damn quickly, though.

If they can dig all day through solid rock, for some reason I don't see why they couldn't use a maul for a few times a year.

And they could use them in Dragon Age/other fantasy games, which is on or above the level of realism of DF.

I'm going to have to reiterate MaximumZero's reply to this, since I figure we both collectively did a spit-take at this.

Most fantasy games are not realistic in the slightest when it comes to combat, weapons, armor, or anything remotely connected to them. DF attempts to be; in case you haven't noticed, Toady's been putting a hell of a lot of time into this recently.

Also: "A few times a year" doesn't mean a whole lot. It depends on what you're fighting, and in most cases, a maul just wouldn't be a very good choice, realistically.

But hey, if I'm wrong and Dragon Age simulates weapon and armor material strengths, impact velocities, and tissue damage on the same or higher level than DF, then I'm wrong. Somehow, I doubt this is the case.


Honestly, it's clear that you haven't done your research about anything concerning this topic.

[Brewster]

What's the best way to train military currently?

[MaximumZero]

@Brewster: The best way I've found thus far is to set an archery range/armor stand/weapon rack as a barracks, then go into the building menu with "q" and set your squad(s) to train there.

@G-Flex: Yeah, I just about cleaned my keyboard with that. It's a good thing I'm giving up Mountain Dew, slowly at least. DA:O =/= realism. Soulrot, anyone?

@Double-A: I've read a few books concerning smithing, and while this does not make me an expert of any kind, I do realize that you really have to know about properties of the metal you're working with to get it to do what you want. Most of the time, folding and shaping the metal lets you change the crystalline structure within the metal itself, which gives it hardness and lets it retain an edge. Working with metal, as far as I've seen, is a lot like working with clay that is really hard to shape. If you don't get just the right mix of ingredients and temperature, the whole thing that you're making turns out as junk. If you heat a bar of metal, and knock on it with a hammer until it's vaguely sword shaped, sure, you'll have a sword shaped piece of metal. That, however, is no guarantee of proper balance (which, coming from a swordsman, is extremely important in a weapon,) proper weight, the type of edge you want, etc, etc. There are a lot of pieces to a sword, it's not just a hunk of metal that's sharp.

[Lord Shonus]

Even once you've shaped it at the right temperature, quenching it properly is exceedingly important. Even using modern, perfect steel, a mistake in quenching will result in a blade you can snap with your bare hands.

[Double A]

I don't think forging swords is a complicated science.

Yes, it is.

Or, you could do what sane people do, and take a block of iron and smack it with a hammer against an anvil with a hammer, periodically reheating it so you don't break the sword.

Surprisingly, this is what dwarves also do. You'd think they WOULD do the liquid nitrogen process, but even THEY are sane enough to do it the normal way.

No, that's not what sane people do, because forging a sword is a hell of a lot more complicated than "heat iron, smack with hammer, repeat".

You're betraying an extreme lack of knowledge regarding metallurgy here. How much you heat the metal, or cool it, or by which process, or how much you work the metal, can and do affect its properties, especially ferrous materials. A decent swordsmith doesn't just heat up a chunk of iron/steel and whack it until it's the right shape. And that's not even considering steel.

Well, what would be the effect on an edged weapon if you electroplated it? I'm not so up on my science. I just swing the swords, I don't make them.

Pretty much nothing, since electroplating is microscopic. The plating would scrape off pretty damn quickly, though.

If they can dig all day through solid rock, for some reason I don't see why they couldn't use a maul for a few times a year.

And they could use them in Dragon Age/other fantasy games, which is on or above the level of realism of DF.

I'm going to have to reiterate MaximumZero's reply to this, since I figure we both collectively did a spit-take at this.

Most fantasy games are not realistic in the slightest when it comes to combat, weapons, armor, or anything remotely connected to them. DF attempts to be; in case you haven't noticed, Toady's been putting a hell of a lot of time into this recently.

Also: "A few times a year" doesn't mean a whole lot. It depends on what you're fighting, and in most cases, a maul just wouldn't be a very good choice, realistically.

But hey, if I'm wrong and Dragon Age simulates weapon and armor material strengths, impact velocities, and tissue damage on the same or higher level than DF, then I'm wrong. Somehow, I doubt this is the case.


Honestly, it's clear that you haven't done your research about anything concerning this topic.

DF wins in combat, but... dragons, bronze colossi, giant cave spiders, man-eating fish, zombie elephants, magma held back by wooden walls, short people who live underground, hippies elves, doomsday machines, humans that managed to survive all this. That's realism?

Furthermore, if someone is sufficiently strong, they could probably do a lot of damage with a maul. Very few dwarves would be able to get that strong, but I could see it happening. Especially if the maul was a dwarf-sized maul.

I also realize, that with time, swordsmithing has become much more complex. However... before, when it was actually needed instead of just a hobby of people who have too much time, it wasn't all that complex. Get iron. Heat iron. Smack iron against hard surface with hard surface. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Lord Shonus]

Doing that would result in an unusable blade. Let me reiterate this, as you clearly refuse to understand.

IF YOU MAKE A SWORD USING THAT METHOD, THE BLADE WILL BREAK THE SECOND YOU TRY TO USE IT.

[Double A]

Fine. I'm too tired to be arguing about something I don't know much about.

Carry on.

[Brewster]

@MaximumZero, unless I order them (station, kill) they will not become recruits and train... am I doing this wrong?

[Lord Shonus]

You have to set their schedule to "train".

[G-Flex]

DF wins in combat, but... dragons, bronze colossi, giant cave spiders, man-eating fish, zombie elephants, magma held back by wooden walls, short people who live underground, hippies elves, doomsday machines, humans that managed to survive all this. That's realism?

There are completely different types of realism in play here, and you're talking about the wrong kind. There are elements of DF that are supposed to work via similar rules of real life (physics in general, material systems, how bodies function, geology in most cases, etc.) and elements that are added on top of that (fictional but otherwise mundane creatures, magical systems, presumably-magical creatures like fairies and giant cave spiders, hell-pits, etc.). We're currently talking about the former.

Furthermore, if someone is sufficiently strong, they could probably do a lot of damage with a maul.

It doesn't matter, because they could still do more damage with something else, at least in most cases, so you'd still probably be better off with something different, unless you're so ridiculously large and tough that you don't need to worry about penetrating armor or ability to cause serious damage at all (which would rarely be the case unless your dwarf is fighting groundhogs and rabbits), in which case you'd still probably be better off with a lighter weapon.

I also realize, that with time, swordsmithing has become much more complex. However... before, when it was actually needed instead of just a hobby of people who have too much time, it wasn't all that complex. Get iron. Heat iron. Smack iron against hard surface with hard surface. Wash, rinse, repeat.

You're completely wrong. When something is a practical trade and not just a hobby, it's a lot more finicky and complex because the product needs to be useful instead of hanging over your mantle. Seriously, if you think more people put care into making a shitty display sword than when it's a matter of life and death for everyone involved, you're extremely far off. Weaponsmithing was an extremely important part of military society, and as Lord Shonus just said, anybody making a sword that way would be making a death wish, because either he'd get himself killed trying to use it, or get himself killed by the widowing families of people who did.

Weaponsmithing and metalworking were developed for millenia prior to the current era. Any sort of cursory research whatsoever would make it clear to you that the aspects of it we're currently talking about applied back then as well as they do now. No, they didn't have liquid nitrogen, but they had to exercise an extreme amount of care and training.

Also, just-plain-iron was barely ever used to make weapons, to my knowledge. Maybe sometimes, but generally speaking, that stuff was made out of steel of some variety or another.

[Rkui]

What's the best way to train military currently?

Use caged goblins, really it always and still is the best to train your soldier quickly, well if you have gobos on your map. Soldiers where always very lazy, and never really trained well, at least they don't seam to kill each other every other day now (taught i think they should wound each other a bit more, but then i kind of know how to avoid this, so maybe its due to that).

And about the artifact, its an artifact you know its more for the show off, the fact its core is made of gold bars or not isn't really important i think, it's just a pure art work, if most of the material is made of gold, then it deserve the golden hammer name.
Its a bit like the real parad armor, they were pure art work and used all kind of materials gold included, they were fonctional non the less. A golden hammer isn't that much irrealist to me.
If it use some jewelry technique, and such item most probably would use them, then its not hard to imagine it with an inner steel structure and edges and some really big golden coating to get the gold weight adventage. They are few golden hammer in real life legend too, so i don't see the problem at all. I'm pretty sure a craftmen of that level would definitly find a good challenge in making such an item, both nice and fonctional, the masonic orders for exemple made a lot of items like this in history.

[G-Flex]

You don't need a "gold weight advantage" because in real life, weapons were kept fairly light by design. A mace would only weigh a few pounds, and if there were a significant advantage to making it heavier, trust me, they would have.

Regarding real-world golden hammers, I'd seriously have to see a source on that, because I've never heard of such a thing.


Regarding ornamental ones, though, of course nobody's going to argue against that. But nobody's going to parade around in solid gold; the stuff's just too heavy.