Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Spectre]

Oh God, I make a call for debate on the merits of feudalism, and you people go off on another nerd tangent about crossbows and religions.  See, this is why we can't have nice discussions, always nerding it up about off-topic crap.

I don't know what all this talk of monarchs and slavery is.  Who says a feudal economy has to be unfair and repressive?  Everybody gives up a portion of their growings to the local magistrate, who can be elected by the people for all I care, and in exchange the magistrate uses the crops taxes to pays his laborers to make arms and roads for his armies to protect the growers from marauding bandits and other lords.  You can even apply it to realms besides agriculture, like indie programming or cybernetics research, as long as you can find some robots or slaves or robot slaves to make all the food. I mean, it's so simple it has to be good.

Of course, the whole thing falls apart when you let those damn merchants and guildsmen capitalist in.  Fucking guildsmen capitalist, bargaining in groups for profitable exchange and market control instead of taking what they're given.  I'm the king dammit, I don't have to pay you at all if I don't want to; every shilling that leaves my hand is a gift by divine right, and you'll be thankful for it, dammit.

No offence or somesuch.
But that sounds awefuly like communism to me. Planned economy included.

[Euld]

Didn't we already establish that knights upgrade to tanks? How can then tank be anything but the modern equivalent of knight?

No no, knights upgrade to gunships! (In Civ 4 anyway).

[Aqizzar]

But that sounds awefuly like communism to me. Planned economy included.

Lies.  Under communism, everybody produces whatever they can stand to produce, the state takes all proceeds, and distributes goods by each person's needs.  Under glorious feudalism, you have to produce some amount of whatever the state tells you to, but you can use anything else you produce beyond that however you want.  Distribution goes to only those that deserve need it too, but it's not a due right.  The only due right is to produce; compensation of taxed producing by any form is the generosity of the armed state, usually returned in the form of centralized military protection.  You can go sell anything you want after that, just don't form any guilds.  Seriously, anybody who says "guild" gets the axe.

Didn't we already establish that knights upgrade to tanks? How can then tank be anything but the modern equivalent of knight?

No no, knights upgrade to gunships! (In Civ 4 anyway).

C'mon guys, I'm trying to have a serious discussion about the merits of feudalism here, stop trolling my thread with all this Ultimate Warrior crap.

Class warfare stuffs.

You created this Frankenstein of a thread Aqizzar! Only you can send it back into the abyss from whence it came.

Aqizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzar!

When did I say anything about class warfare?  Nothing about feudalism entails class warfare, it's just never been properly implemented before.  You can certainly have an equitable feudal system of provision between producers, craftsmen, and the military by a nobility removed from material concerns themselves.  Unless you're talking about the merchant class, and then yeah fuck those guys.  Usury I say, usury all of it.

And how did these bees get in here?

[KaelGotDwarves]

Aqizzar's "let them eat cake" huh?

So why haven't you adopted the royal we yet?

[Creaca]

So long as you don't let the Pope run the train on you Aquzzar, I see this working out nicely.

All I have to do is get a bunch of bankers, craftsmen, and traders together, start guilds, create a class in between the nobles and serfs...

Maybe I could call it the "middle class".

[Spectre]

Lies.  Under communism, everybody produces whatever they can stand to produce, the state takes all proceeds, and distributes goods by each person's needs.  Under glorious feudalism, you have to produce some amount of whatever the state tells you to, but you can use anything else you produce beyond that however you want.  Distribution goes to only those that deserve need it too, but it's not a due right.  The only due right is to produce; compensation of taxed producing by any form is the generosity of the armed state, usually returned in the form of centralized military protection.  You can go sell anything you want after that, just don't form any guilds.  Seriously, anybody who says "guild" gets the axe.

So, In communism you produce, and get what you need.
In feudalism, you produce too. But you can keep what you produce to much. And you get what you need if you are lucky.
(Military exists in both).

I think I prefer communism good sir.

[Bandages]

What happens when counts gay marry in feudalist states? Do they merge fiefs?

I MUST KNOW.

[ToonyMan]

I will cut you yesterday with my sword!!!

[Aqizzar]

So, In communism you produce, and get what you need.
In feudalism, you produce too. But you can keep what you produce to much. And you get what you need if you are lucky.
(Military exists in both).

I think I prefer communism good sir.

Always with the fucking nanny-state talk.  I just said you get what you need under feudalism, military protection from marauding foreigners, enforcement of contracts, and the occasional road.  If you need any more than that, grow more and give it to the state.  Not to mention the addition of wonderful material incentive.  You can buy whatever else you need with your excess produce, which should be plenty since it's not like the state has much to pay for.

Heck, people say there's no social mobility in Feudalism (upwards anyway), but if you produce more than you're indebted to until you can hire a bunch of people to do your farming for you, hey presto you're a noble too!  See, it all works out great in the end.

What happens when counts gay marry in feudalist states? Do they merge fiefs?

I MUST KNOW.

Well, it is an abomination, but for the preservation of the structure they should keep their fiefs separate.  Can't have anybody getting too rich.  I could entertain the idea of them moving their fiefs together though, or exchange with a local.  Unless "merge fiefs" is a euphemism for some horrible act of sodomy, in which case, no you can't.  That's not really part of Feudalism, I'm just saying that's gross and I wouldn't allow it if I was king.  ...Which if I was king, would make it part of Feudalism.  Divine right is funny like that.

All I have to do is get a bunch of bankers, craftsmen, and traders together, start guilds, create a class in between the nobles and serfs...

Ah ha, you just said the magic woid!

[Robocorn]

Somewhere along the lines a noble is going to decide that he'd make a better king than you and have you violently deposed. Somebody's going to take a chance that you don't really have divine powers and all hell will break loose.

What happens if someone defies the production orders? What if several thousand people defy production orders? Do you kill them and risk starting an epidemic? What if an entire generation decides that farming is boring and takes up textile work? It seems like this would only work in modern times if the entire population had a cultlike reverence for the monarch and his vassals or if you implemented a Brave New World system where the underclass was mentally retarded and the upper class was coked out on something.

The system seems doomed to fail because either the citizens would find some sort of major problem with the societal structure and get their hands on fertilizer bombs and AK-47s, or the nobility would depose the monarch and cause a civil war.

[Jackrabbit]

Unless "merge fiefs" is a euphemism for some horrible act of sodomy, in which case, no you can't.

If I sig this, would I be breaking the forum's rule on sex and sex related topics?

[Realmfighter]

I don't think anyone will care.

[Bandages]

It'll be the closest I've ever come to being quoted in a signature!

Surely this pride will cause me to spare the rod on my servants tonight.

Damn, actually a lot of middle-ages terminology is pretty sexy sounding.

[Aqizzar]

Somewhere along the lines a noble is going to decide that he'd make a better king than you and have you violently deposed. Somebody's going to take a chance that you don't really have divine powers and all hell will break loose.

The divine power of being king is having a bigger army than any fief, by virtue of owning more land, which is enforced by the bigger army.  It's quite simple.

What happens if someone defies the production orders? What if several thousand people defy production orders? Do you kill them and risk starting an epidemic? What if an entire generation decides that farming is boring and takes up textile work? It seems like this would only work in modern times if the entire population had a cultlike reverence for the monarch and his vassals or if you implemented a Brave New World system where the underclass was mentally retarded and the upper class was coked out on something.

Like I said, it could work with anything besides agriculture, so long as there's a way to make money and everyone can still feed themselves.  The kingdoms of medieval Italy had to import food by trading textiles and stuff to other lands.  As for the populace rising up in anger or whatever, that's easily fixed in two ways.  First, don't give them a reason to rise up, at least not enough of one to break the other reason.  That other reason being that the vast majority of people are not willing to risk their lives for the possibility of improving their economic freedom in some slight way.  I mean, Feudalism existed for a thousand years, they must have been doing something right.

And if all else fails, you just take the loyal chunk of the army you have left, and go knock over some weak charitable fief who listened to that gobbledygook about respecting the peasantry, and show them all the error of their ways.  It's a self-correcting system.

Unless "merge fiefs" is a euphemism for some horrible act of sodomy, in which case, no you can't.

If I sig this, would I be breaking the forum's rule on sex and sex related topics?

I have a line in my sig about Sea Nymph ejaculate.  I think it'll be fine.

[Jackrabbit]

Yeah, it'll be fine.