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Poll

To start with, we'll build villages to support a town.  What sort of town should we aim for first?

An eco-friendly manufacturing town.
- 4 (18.2%)
A military watch-tree.
- 7 (31.8%)
A market forest.
- 0 (0%)
An animal sanctuary/warbeast breeding forest.
- 7 (31.8%)
A terraforming mission (colonise inhospitable environment).
- 4 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 22


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Author Topic: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge - Elf Forest!  (Read 2815 times)

Iituem

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Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge - Elf Forest!
« on: July 04, 2010, 10:34:42 am »

Alongside that other fort I'm working on, I'm going to try and put into action a concept I had for a different DF challenge, the Civilisation Challenge.  Rather than building a single fortress, this challenge puts time constraints and goals on you to force you to develop multiple fortresses instead.  The real goal of this is to create a richer, more varied world for Adventure Mode.  Admittedly because DF does not support lasting forts most of those settlements will in fact be empty husks, but it's a start.

This attempt at the Civilisation Challenge will be called Venturer to reflect that.  The actual rules for the civilisation challenge are deliberately incomplete and will be fleshed out through playing, but the essence is simple; build smaller villages to supply your bigger settlements, and specialisation is the name of the game.







The game world, Nitom Arkoth, is available for download here, although I will not be playing this as a succession game so that I can keep control of playtesting.  I will try to run things similar to a community fort, but story updates will likely be much simpler until we have enough civilisation built to test out our first adventurer.  Anyone picking a character will most likely be named as an expedition leader or similar when setting up the forts.  Where this happens, journals will reflect those characters - otherwise I'll try and use the outpost liason as a viewpoint character.

Suggestions for differently themed settlements are more than welcome, e.g. fishing villages, foundries, temples etc.  The more exotic ones might need to be saved as town or city challenges, though.  Cultural distinctions are also welcome, such as architectural styles or lifestyle points that can be added into the game.


The first question is, which of the playable civs should we embrace as our starting point?  Be aware that worldgen was stopped at year 2 - the vast majority of settlements will end up being created through this.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:05:56 pm by Iituem »
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2010, 11:18:11 am »

Just a question:

Why would a watchtower produce manufactured goods?

If doing this, these towns and stuff defenitely need to be uploaded to DFMA

Here's an idea

Port Town
Time: 3 years
Goal: Have dwellings for 60 people by the sea, must have clean water source
Reward: +10 Civ Points, +4 Taxes , +6 Trade Goods, -3 Food, -3 Materials, -4 Security
+1 Civ point if you have actual docks
+1 Civ point if you have actual ship(s)
+10 Security if you have a drydock (ship construction facility)

Why +4 tax instead of 2? Because of import tax. It ain't a free port
Why +6 trade goods instead of 4? Because of imports. Its a port.
Why -4 security? You can hide stuff (including disease) on ships pretty easily.
Why +10 security for drydock? Your civ now has ships. Coasts: protected more than a bit more


Great Wall
Time: 1 Year
Goal: Have a wall that spans the entire map in one direction. It must have entrances and a walkable (and defendable) rampart.
Reward: +5 Security, -1 Materials
+1 Civ Point/per embark tile your wall spans.
+1 Security for each level (uniform) that your wall has (1 z-level tall = +0 security, 2= +1, 3= +2, so on.
+1 Awesome Point if you have some kind of marker to tell people which way things are (the nearest town, garrison, whatev)

Why +5 Security? Because it funnels any enemies you may have to near garrisons. The wall works as a deterrent, and a place of reference for your adventurer


Also, wouldn't a smaller world be better, I mean, with a clustered amount of constructions, you could actually walk (not travel) between places. Or, at least you wouldn't have to travel very far. A lumber camp would be very close to a place that uses it. Just as a place that uses the stuff from the lumber would be close to a place that uses what it makes. Soon you have these swaths of constructions with a city in the middle and, moving outward, towns, then factories, then camps.

Things closer together are cool.

I'm defenitely watching this. Great idea.
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Iituem

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2010, 11:27:32 am »

Just a question:

Why would a watchtower produce manufactured goods?


Because I am a fool and copy-pasted the entry for Manufacturing Town, then forgot to edit appropriately, that is why.  Changed now so you have to cater for 30 soldiers instead.


Edit:  Also, having forgotten to mention it in the OP, I am using the version of Boksi's plant mod that I used for Olonkulet, updated to DF 0.31.08.  Non-standard plants abound.  Trees remain standard for 31.08, though.

Also included is a version of SethCreid's library mod (humans only), my own Stone Age mod (kobolds only, fixed so it works now) and my own Tree City mod (elves only).  Dwarves and goblins don't get special modifications.  This is because they are cool enough as is.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 11:35:18 am by Iituem »
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TALLPANZER

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2010, 12:38:08 pm »

Housing Town
Time: 8 years
Goal: Good rooms for 100 people, with Clean well, and hospital
Reward: +12 Civ points, +7 Taxes,  +1 Trade, -5 food, -5 Materials, -2 Security
+1 Civ point and +1 trade for every 50 People that actually live in the town.
+1 Taxes for every 25 rooms past 100
+1 Security for town Guard
+1 Security For Royal guard
+1 Trade if you have an Economy running
+1 Trade and +1 Taxes for having three shops running
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 01:54:12 pm »

Hmm...

Farm
Time: 1 Year
Goal: 300 Plants
Reward: +5 Food, +5 Materials, -1 Security
+1 Food for food storage facility
The Dwarven Heartland is actually populated by small towns, and, more importantly, farmers. These farmers haul their goods every harvest to the town to sell. The town (merchant town) takes the goods and sells them to caravans when they come around, so that the caravans can ferry them to industrial towns, or big cities, or garrisons.


Brewery/Vineyard
Time: 1 Year
Goal: Make 300 Booze. Can grow plants, or import them
Reward: +7 Civ Points, +5 Food, +5 Trade, -1 Security, -2 Materials
+2 Materials if all plants grown on site (negates above subtraction)
+5 Trade if you take the booze and store it in a big wine cellar ("to be opened in 5-10 years for better taste")
Where does the mountainhome get all of its booze? Well, its from quality breweries in the hills, where booze is brewed and then stored in fancy containers for years until it is ready.
(Why +2 Materials? Because breweries intake plants and output booze. If intake is home-grown, than there is no input, only output)

University
Time: 4 Years
Goal: Have Training Facilities for all jobs and housing (can be dormitory) for at least 30 students and 10 teachers
Reward: +25 Civ Points, +5 Security, -2 Food
+2 Civ Points for bi-dormitories (2 person dorm) en mass, with teachers with their own housing
+3 Civ Points for dedicated constructions (each place of learning has its own building)
Where do you think Urist McMechanicdwarf learned his skills? He went to mechanic school at a university. Once the demand for trained workers grew too high for apprenticeship to be practical (and taking two apprentices was unpractical), it was a brilliant dwarf's idea to send all new untrained workers from wealthy families (whom, without training their heirs, could lose their wealth) to a place where it was all about learning, and the teachers weren't also busy with a job.


Quarry/Mining Town
Time 4 Years
Goal Extract Stone/Ore from the earth, process it, and sell it , Provide housing for 50
Reward +10 Materials
The majority of the people here would be quarry workers. They cut stone into blocks for use on the king's latest project, to be shipped off to who-knows-where. Few mine for ore, whom dig deep down for the crown jewels of the area, iron and gold among others. No one goes down deep for stone. Large quarries (dug from mountains) are much more efficient. But beware the dust rising from one, for it can blind a man after too long.


As for the above post by  TALLPANZER,

Not trying to troll or anything, but...

What would a housing town accomplish? A market town is a place where farmers from surrounding areas can bring their goods to sell to merchants whom supervise (or sell them to) caravans that travel to larger cities that require food. Industrial towns consume food (for their people) and output goods. A housing has input, but no output.

You could argue that taxes are output, but people have to work to get taxes to output.

You may want to re-lable the title Slums, or Ghetto because with nowhere to work, no one gets money, which means no food is taken in, which means there is no life. Additionally, with no money there is no taxes.

Farms send food to>  Small Towns>  Consume/Send food to>  Big Cities/Industrial Towns Consume

A housing town would accomplish zero.  But, this brings me to Slums


Slum
Time: 5 Years
Goal: House 100, provide means to survival without a clear work pattern
Reward: 15 Civ Points, +2 Taxes, -4 Security, + 5 Materials
Slums are festering hives of rotting filth. With recent wars, or just bad economic times in general, many people have been forced (or chosen) to move to the cities. These cities, overcrowded with newcomers, could not provide many economic opportunities. With not enough food or work, people starved. Yet, due to whatever circumstances, people could not leave. There was nowhere to go. Overtaxed and overworked, the people of the slums try everyday to win their next meal. Up above, the rich have taken advantage of the weakness of the inhabitants and practically taken over with "The only way out".

This is a tricky one, I admit. Basically, you have to make a place with a way to survive, but  no easy way to get it. There needs to be demand for menial services. The way of life =

Noble buys food, hires workers to work for him in his chosen industry        -> Workers get paid, Buy food, get taxed   

Taxes=  Noble buys food, hires workers to work for him in his chosen industry

Noble uses his industry to make him copious amounts of money.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:44:57 pm by Tuxman »
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Iituem

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 02:28:01 pm »

I will probably incorporate some or all of these suggestions as we go along, but I'm going to tell you right now that the figures are probably unbalanced, Tuxman.   ;D

A chief reason for this is that I am using Boksi's plant mod, which was re-balanced (by me, a year ago) so that the maximum output of a single tile is eight plant spawns a year (and then only for firecaps or similar quick-growing, low-value plants) and all plants range between 8-30 Uriststars' worth of production in a year (raw, converted to booze, thread, extracts, powders).

So yeah, producing 400 food crops is a viable challenge for one year.  If you used firecaps or their equivalent (Growdur 500 - about half a season) you could pump eight out from a single tile in a year - so you'd need an absolute minimum of 50 tiles' worth of firecaps growing to manage it, and you'd be running the risk of not completing by the 28th Obsidian.

This brings up a point - if and when other people try this challenge, balance it according to your raws.  What is hard for the Boksi Mod is much easier for vanilla.


Edit:  I'm also surprised by how popular the kobolds seem to be.  Right now we have a three-way tie between Dwarves, Goblins and Kobolds.  I'll probably go with whichever one hits 4/5 first.
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TALLPANZER

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 02:30:54 pm »

They could gather Berries?
.... Yeah, Bad Idea.
What Should have done is proposed The point modifiers as generic modifiers that could be added to any of the other towns.
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2010, 02:37:25 pm »

Well, I like how your food production works. Its rigged how it is. Anyway, the point is that any farms should be large and running year-round. Like, aboveground fields will actually be fields. Soundz good. Even larger demand for food.
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 02:52:23 pm »

Here's an idea:  Each civilization has its own unique food-gathering method.

We know there are beoduin in the deserts, herders in the hills, farmers in the plains and fields. Why not each civilization have its own developed means to gather food.

Dwarfs would obviously be underground plants. Elves might be gathering...? (they don't hunt, obviously)
Humans defenitely aboveground farming. Goblins hunting maybe? Kobolds are then left with fishing.

This is just an idea to throw out there. I mean, if all cultures produce the same food, then there's no difference in adventure mode. And, this wouldn't necessarily mean only the given type, but food culture (and agricultural architecture) could be based on this.

Goblin Hunting lodges, Dwarven Cavern Farms, Human Farming Towns, Kobold Fishing Villages, Elven... gatherers.. (stupid elves)
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Julius Clonkus

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2010, 03:06:22 pm »

I say we should start playing the elves first.

Come on, if they are forced to extinction by another civ while they are a so few, it's a tragedy. Let's make it a statistic first.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 03:09:02 pm by Julius Clonkus »
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DF Players never truly leave.  They just abandon the fortress for a few years and then reclaim.

Iituem

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2010, 03:17:30 pm »

Here's an idea:  Each civilization has its own unique food-gathering method.

We know there are beoduin in the deserts, herders in the hills, farmers in the plains and fields. Why not each civilization have its own developed means to gather food.

Dwarfs would obviously be underground plants. Elves might be gathering...? (they don't hunt, obviously)
Humans defenitely aboveground farming. Goblins hunting maybe? Kobolds are then left with fishing.

This is just an idea to throw out there. I mean, if all cultures produce the same food, then there's no difference in adventure mode. And, this wouldn't necessarily mean only the given type, but food culture (and agricultural architecture) could be based on this.

Goblin Hunting lodges, Dwarven Cavern Farms, Human Farming Towns, Kobold Fishing Villages, Elven... gatherers.. (stupid elves)

Fortuitously, this is exactly what will come to pass!

Well, I can't promise that dwarves won't grow the odd surface plant and humans won't grow the odd mushroom, but humans have an advantage to surface farming and dwarves have the advantage of subterranean farming.  Elves, goblins and kobolds do not farm.  I've actually removed it as a labour.  This is why the Gathering Camps exist instead.

Elves can gather fruit (although they aren't coded as such, elven civs will likely be vegetarian except for sapient kills) and part of the Extended Elf Mod includes flowers that (hopefully!) produce fruit when pollinated.  I haven't done thorough enough testing on it, but it should work, and the defs are in place so I can edit them in-raw if need be.

Goblins cannot eat fruit (obligatory carnivores), but they can tame so they can raise cattle farms.  Mostly, though, they'll set up hunting and fishing camps.

Kobolds must also eat meat and hunt/fish for it, but I have removed Animal Taming as a labour from their civ set, so they cannot domesticate animals.  Kobolds have some pretty hefty disadvantages in the game (although on careful assessment I've reincorporated Carpentry as a labour because otherwise they miss out on bins and barrels), but do get special tools and crafts and their own HFS to balance it out.  Carving out a kobold civ (literally) will prove a challenge, whether I end up having to do it first or fifth.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 03:19:12 pm by Iituem »
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2010, 03:40:15 pm »

Did you want us users to build towns too or was it your intention to do it all yourself? I mean, we can all work together, but then we won't have a full world.
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Iituem

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2010, 03:52:07 pm »

For this one, I'll be doing this myself so I can tackle balancing and bug issues that arise.  The idea is to prove the concept so that others can turn it into a succession or the like.  Also so I can do some fun stuff with Adventure Mode later on.  ^_^
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TALLPANZER

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2010, 11:16:52 pm »

Kobolds! Yay! I love those little buggers. Let's increase our camp value!
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Tuxman

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Re: Venturer: A Civilisation Challenge
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 01:03:26 am »

... The elves got to 4 first...

Hippie tree-loving bastards....
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