Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7

Author Topic: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance  (Read 7938 times)

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2010, 06:11:02 pm »

Well, if you, say, turn on the radio, it becomes pretty clear that the game isn't entirely serious.
Logged

Acanthus117

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angry Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2010, 06:12:12 pm »

Nah, I turn it off.

I play my own tunes when I tear the world a new one.
Logged
Is apparently a Lizardman. ಠ_ಠ
YOU DOUBLE PENIS
"The pessimist is either always right or pleasantly surprised; he cherishes that which is good because he knows it cannot last."

ToonyMan

  • Bay Watcher
  • Danger Magnet
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2010, 06:24:20 pm »

WorkerDrone: COUSIN IT IS YOUR COUSIN
WorkerDrone: HOW ABOUT THAT WE GO BOWLING?
ToonyMan: BRO IS ALWAYS BRO
ToonyMan: WHY DONT I BUY YOU A BEER
WorkerDrone: OKAY, MAYBE ANOTHER TIME
ToonyMan: MAYUBE WE CAN GO SNOW SLEEDDING
WorkerDrone: OR MAYBE WE CAN GO PLAY FOOS BALL.
Logged

Acanthus117

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angry Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2010, 06:25:08 pm »

HEY NIKO

YOU WANNA SEE REAL AMERICAN TEE TEES

/paraphrasing
Logged
Is apparently a Lizardman. ಠ_ಠ
YOU DOUBLE PENIS
"The pessimist is either always right or pleasantly surprised; he cherishes that which is good because he knows it cannot last."

Cthulhu

  • Bay Watcher
  • A squid
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2010, 06:33:38 pm »

NIKO, LET'S GO GET SOME FOOD

NIKO, LET'S GO PLAY DARTS

NIKO, I HEAR GUNSHOTS AND SQUEALING TIRES, LET'S GO BOWLING
Logged
Shoes...

Acanthus117

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angry Writer
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2010, 06:36:15 pm »

The drunken minigame is really funny, though.

I got hit by three cars once, in quick succession.
Logged
Is apparently a Lizardman. ಠ_ಠ
YOU DOUBLE PENIS
"The pessimist is either always right or pleasantly surprised; he cherishes that which is good because he knows it cannot last."

Euld

  • Bay Watcher
  • There's coffee in that nebula ಠ_ರೃ
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2010, 06:56:25 pm »

It's weird when people say GTA IV had mini games.  For me, each one was so well integrated into the game that I never thought of them as such.

Flying drunk is hilarious, and deadly.  Best done alone, or with Roman so you can pretend you killed him.

Jualin

  • Bay Watcher
  • What's that sound?
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2010, 07:45:18 pm »

Unsure if all that's left of this thread is references to GTA4, but I would like to mention that I am genuinely touched by Ebert's honest admission. He is a brave man.
Logged

Eagleon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Soundcloud
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2010, 08:22:09 pm »

So he refuses to play video games. He refuses to examine more than cursorily the selection available, and only from more modern examples. He dismisses and belittles the efforts of tens of thousands of individuals as "chicken scratches" (many of them putting in longer individual hours creating their contributions to single works than any film-maker), and he still refuses to consider he could be wrong.

Not really changing his stance or admitting anything. He just seems to be saying "Go away and leave me alone I don't want to bother with this any more." *shrugs* Kinda silly :P It's like a deaf painter saying that music has no artistic value.
Logged
Agora: open-source, next-gen online discussions with formal outcomes!
Music, Ballpoint
Support 100% Emigration, Everyone Walking Around Confused Forever 2044

ToonyMan

  • Bay Watcher
  • Danger Magnet
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2010, 08:24:24 pm »

I would give him some merit though because there is so many let's see anime, Twilight, etc. anything that is massively hated by a lot of people because they are hated by a lot of people.
Logged

palsch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2010, 08:51:42 pm »

I do find it quite funny reading peoples comments about Ebert who have only ever read those two posts. I'm willing to bet that pointing to, oh, many of his other recent writings would give a rather different view. Even if you don't share his views on a few things (and something tells me he doesn't expect people to agree with him on all that much - critics don't last long if they can't take disagreement) he is well worth reading. The only blogger I know with a similar depth of life experience to share is Frederik Pohl, the SF author who collaborated with, edited or otherwise worked with/knew every major SF author since the 30's.

And, to be fair, I think he has a point. Although, as always, it really depends on how you define art.

There are two main definitions you can use which suggest video games are rarely art, and even more rarely good art.

The first is that art is a reflection of the artist, an expression of their will, vision or whatever for the primary purpose of (basically) emotional communication. You can phrase it different ways, but that's the one I like best so I'm going with it. Communication that doesn't engage the emotions is rarely - if ever - considered art.

Video games are, in this sense, as much a medium as art itself.  The primary purpose is for the player to express themselves (at least in most games that are fun to play). The game may have a tight plot that it follows, but a plot alone isn't art until it's story is told. That is the players job. The player takes the role of an author, actor or director (depending on the game), albeit one with tight constraints on how they explore the telling.

In a sense this makes each playing of a game a collaborative artwork between player and game designers, but it suggests the game itself isn't art in the traditional sense.

The second, which Ebert suggests and then dismisses in his more recent post, is that art (or good art) is that which engages your empathy. Again, this can't usually be the primary goal of a game so long as the player is supposed to be the guiding force. A player exercising their will within a game world is putting their own emotions and views into the drivers seat, not engaging with those expressed by the artist. Again the player is in effect the artist, until they get railroaded out of actually playing and become a passive viewer, at which point it may as well be a film or book.

Of course, in both these cases it should be obvious that games can contain art. A cutscene has as much claim to being art as any short film. The graphics and other contents likewise. But the game as a whole... it's hard to say that it forms a coherent work of art once you factor in the player interactions. Even if those player interactions are with art and result in a new (transient) work of art in themselves.

The fact that most games contain bad art and most playthroughs result in even worse should be obvious.

Then again it is easy to shift your definition of art to one that can include video games. It's just I can't think of a consistent one that doesn't leave it horribly subjective and down to immediate experience, which suggests that whether or not a game is art depends on the player. I find that hugely unsatisfying and think it falls back to the situation of the art not lying in the game itself, but in the interaction between its content and the players actions.
Logged

Eagleon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Soundcloud
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2010, 09:12:03 pm »

I don't think it matters too much. Whether it's art or not, it's an experience that has affected and changed an untold number of people's lives. There is something truly compelling about a good video game, whether it involves a story or not, and I think most of us would agree. His lack of appreciation for it as a whatever-it-is is just kinda sad and stale to me, a lash-out at a part of modern culture he really doesn't 'get', as others have said.

Art has never held a formal definition for long, for good reason. By having said this he shows ignorance of the nebulosity of our understanding of what it is, which (to me) damages my already shaky opinion of his capability to criticize other mediums.

That and he's kind of ugly. So there.
Logged
Agora: open-source, next-gen online discussions with formal outcomes!
Music, Ballpoint
Support 100% Emigration, Everyone Walking Around Confused Forever 2044

Muz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2010, 05:01:22 am »

Here's my stance on the issue:
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER

There, I said it. It's stupid, like people arguing for hours whether bubble gum is a type of food. No, they don't argue for hours, they argue for fucking years. What's it going to change anyway? Is the government going to start giving out scholarships and pour research into game development studies if someone thinks it's an art? Are people going to suddenly view you as an artist and martyr you when you get killed?

This is why I avoid being an artist. I'll keep to my own creative work, and don't call it art. As soon as you call something art, you have 10 people "understanding" it for every person who appreciates it.
Logged
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

Kogan Loloklam

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm suffering from an acute case of Hominini Terravitae Biologis. Keep your distance!
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2010, 07:54:03 am »

Here's my stance on the issue:
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER

There, I said it. It's stupid, like people arguing for hours whether bubble gum is a type of food. No, they don't argue for hours, they argue for fucking years. What's it going to change anyway? Is the government going to start giving out scholarships and pour research into game development studies if someone thinks it's an art? Are people going to suddenly view you as an artist and martyr you when you get killed?

This is why I avoid being an artist. I'll keep to my own creative work, and don't call it art. As soon as you call something art, you have 10 people "understanding" it for every person who appreciates it.
And seeing shit in it that you didn't mean and wonder how the hell they got it out of it.
Logged
... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

Muz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Roger Ebert Changes His Stance
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2010, 09:04:03 am »

Hmm... let me name a character Amy. And the bad guy Bob.

Then you'll have someone saying that the character's name symbolizes America and Bob symbolizes Britain. Someone thinks it's a porn star name. Someone thinks I named her after my girlfriend. Someone thinks that because the character is female, she symbolizes a feminist struggle against male oppression. Someone else finds Amy and Bob to mean words in some obscure language.

This is why some people hate art :P
Logged
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7