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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1611410 times)

hermes

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4590 on: April 20, 2011, 10:40:26 pm »

Quote from: Threetoe
With the construction of sewers drawing to an end comes the beginnings of catacombs. These will twist and turn and mix with other underground structures creating fertile ground for quests and adventuring.

Wow, multi-layered cities are gonna be sweet.  Double question time...  Could be answers already to these but I cannot recall...

Are there plans to have some entities inhabit the sewers and catacombs (as opposed to just wandering around like the undead), if so what kinds?  eg. sewer hermits, black market traders.

And...

Will the undead be given life by a necromancer of sorts, or a god, or the spirits of dead entities, or just.. something else?  (I'm thinking of Threetoe's story, Warriors of the Dead, where the soldiers who come back to the "real world" have returned from a kind of hell, could the undead be populated from entities who have actually already died in worldgen history?)

Edit - Have been going through all Threetoe's stories recently, and another question popped into mind...
How can one access the catacombs?  In Dragon Quest the priest accesses the catacombs from a church, will it be like this, or through the sewers, or something else?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 10:46:08 pm by hermes »
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Willfor

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4591 on: April 20, 2011, 10:44:06 pm »

I was under the impression that -- like how night creatures often have names like "dusk hag" and the like -- "vampire" would be just one of many random names that could be assigned to an undead. Like "Hicksticks the dusk vampire" or "Shadyhag the midnight ghoul of shade".

It hasn't been outright stated anywhere, but that is how I see it most likely happening. In my opinion.
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tigrex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4592 on: April 20, 2011, 11:58:23 pm »

I love the sound of catacombs.  One question sticks in my mind:

In a world where undead exist, why would anyone bury their dead at all?  Why not just chuck everyone in the crematorium?

I'd love there to be a thematic or logical reason, you understand.
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4593 on: April 21, 2011, 12:03:55 am »

Maybe so they can head down to the tombs and say hi to great-grandad one in a while? I dunno.
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Dbuhos

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4594 on: April 21, 2011, 12:41:51 am »

How would you feel if your loved one was chopped to pieces then incinerated instead of getting a proper funeral ? Plus who would think that the dead would come back to life, I mean most people would think it's just superstition and such.
That may be one of the reasons.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 12:44:48 am by Dbuhos »
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4595 on: April 21, 2011, 12:51:42 am »

How would you feel if your loved one was chopped to pieces then incinerated instead of getting a proper funeral ?

To many cultures, that is a proper funeral. Cremation exists in the real world, as do funeral pyres and that sort of thing.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4596 on: April 21, 2011, 12:56:24 am »

How would you feel if your loved one was chopped to pieces then incinerated instead of getting a proper funeral ?

To many cultures, that is a proper funeral. Cremation exists in the real world, as do funeral pyres and that sort of thing.

True...
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Kogut

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4597 on: April 21, 2011, 01:03:44 am »

How will night creature creature weaknesses, important ways to deal with specific monsters, making sure they're permanently dead, etc. be dealt with? Especially for night creatures way out in savage lands where nobody's heard of them and information-gathering might not be possible?

Clairvoyance? Prophets? A Wizard Detected It? No information?
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4598 on: April 21, 2011, 01:04:52 am »

Well, in general, undead are the exclusive product of evil magic.  If you live in a region that's not naturally evil, your dead won't rise, so why throw a fuss?

In some fantasy universes, undead are a relatively recent invention, too.  When the dead were buried, nobody was worried about zombies or skeletons.
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4599 on: April 21, 2011, 01:07:26 am »

I love the sound of catacombs.  One question sticks in my mind:

In a world where undead exist, why would anyone bury their dead at all?  Why not just chuck everyone in the crematorium?

I'd love there to be a thematic or logical reason, you understand.

Speaking purely hypothetically, there could be practical magical/spiritual reasons for keeping the bodies around. For instance, maybe it's possible to actually convene with said spirits, or for their spirits to actually benefit you from time to time instead of just being wailing ghosts if you're unlucky. I can totally see dwarves (or other entities) engaging in a sort of ancestor-worship, you know, offering prayers to Granddad for good luck or to help with the harvest or what have you.

See also: Morrowind, where the dark elves traditionally bind their ancestors' bones/spirits to a given place for practical reasons, and they eventually have to pretty much donate all their dead people in order to keep the Ghostfence running.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4600 on: April 21, 2011, 03:13:28 am »

Are the quest givers going to reward us with anything beside fame and glory in the near future ? (Urists, Weapons, Amulets and different useless/useful stuff.)
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4601 on: April 21, 2011, 03:25:17 am »

I love the sound of catacombs.  One question sticks in my mind:

In a world where undead exist, why would anyone bury their dead at all?  Why not just chuck everyone in the crematorium?

I'd love there to be a thematic or logical reason, you understand.
We already know the answer to this from Dwarf Mode. Burning them yields ghosts. It's undoubtedly much easier to just chuck the bodies in a glorified cellar and bolt the door so they stay there. Ghosts can pass through walls, zombies can't.
There's a more pertinent question here.
What sort of situation is likely to prevent bodies from being laid to rest properly? Or are these walking dead active for some other reason?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 04:44:17 am by Cruxador »
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Jeremy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4602 on: April 21, 2011, 07:16:11 am »

If random weaknesses and powers were left up to the player to discover, it would reintegrate a fundamental gameplay concept of roguelikes that DF is currently lacking -- experimenting to determine the parameters of this particular world. It would be neat if alchemy eventually worked that way as well, in that a particular combination of reagents always produces a cloudy potion, but what exactly a cloudy potion does varies from worldgen to worldgen.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4603 on: April 21, 2011, 09:40:45 am »

I'd like to see weaknesses and such be procedurally generated, but unique to monster type. So all the hags are weak to oak wood, and the trolls hate honey, or whatever. Of course, right now I think that each individual night creature is unique compared to all the rest, so unless we get one super-successful night creature that takes enough mates and sires enough children to perpetuate itself (a la Dracula), then we have to deal with the odd fact that the peasants somehow know how to defeat the night creature, but are unable to do it themselves.

If monster types do end up being the way Toady goes (or the successful single night creature posited above), then you have the justification that some folk hero has killed one before, and therefore everyone knows the story. This leads to the situation where all the villagers just know that if you carry holly berries around on your person the local monster won't bother you- unfriendly little towns may withhold this information in order to dispose of unwelcome foreigners who wouldn't know the custom. This could lead to the quasi-symbiotic situation where the villagers are afforded some measure of protection from bandits and the like because the outsiders do not know how to defeat the monster, and since this is beneficial to the villagers they never tell outsiders how to defeat it, which helps the monster kill new victims.

Weaknesses may not kill the creature, though.

Vampires, as Dante was saying, have a weakness to beans - they aren't killed by beans, but they have to stop and count the beans.  It distracts them.

I've looked up mythologies from around the world, and some cultures have very quirky, if not outright humorous "weaknesses" for some monsters.

Kappa, for example, are Japanese river creatures that look like humanoid turtles with beaks and carry a plate on their head.  The plate is somehow affixed to the top of their bald head and contains the water from their home body of water.  If they ever lose contact with their home water, they die immediately, so breaking the plate is the killer weakness of the creature.  Their second-favorite meal is human (especially human children)... something.  The actual thing they eat changes depending on the story, but generally, it's either the livers, intestines, or some portion of the human's soul, which they suck out through the belly button (or some other, lower opening in the human). 

Thing is, their absolute favorite food is cucumbers.  So if you bribe kappa with cucumbers, they'll leave you alone, and won't eat you.  There are festivals where people write the names of their family members on cucumbers, and toss the cucumbers in the river to bribe the kappa every year, giving up a tribute of cucumbers so the monsters don't eat their souls.

Other amusing things are that, for all their potential soul-eating, you can just plain talk to them, as well, and they were forced to obey customary politeness.  If you bow deeply to a kappa in greeting, they would have to bow just as deeply in return, which could spill the water out of their plate, and defeat the kappa for you.

Anyway, something like a way to distract or bribe a monster would probably be more generally known knowledge, since it's something where you didn't have to kill the creature to know it.  Maybe a not-quite-so-hostile monster will just outright go up and ask to be bribed if he prefers people throw him his favorite food of their own accord as a sort of protection racket.  I mean, the more people know that leaving your favorite whip wine out near your cave will keep you from busting in and killing their family, the more whip wine you'll suddenly find out near your cave for you to drink whenever, right?
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Kogut

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4604 on: April 21, 2011, 10:56:26 am »

Really interesting, I must find something like this. Thanks for kappa story!
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