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[NW_Kohaku]

As for destruction of property and rebuilding of property i guess you could modulalise it or something. So when a city map is genned, the game could gen several alternate states for said city. It could gen 4 size expansion maps, and 4 ruined versions of the city (far more than this could be genned, this is simply an example). WHen a city goes past a threshold in population or wealth the next phase could simply be loaded from these original gens. This would be very un organic but it would be simple and presumably take less space than a truely organic system, where the state of every building/item is tracked. You could add detail to such a system by giving certain structures within the city several versions which they could move between depending on whether they had been upgraded, or sacked etc.

You wouldn't have to have whole chunks of cities fall into disrepair.  If you have a crowded urban block grow up because the population was large enough for it, but then the population fell again because of a siege or a famine or something, then you could simply make all the "extra" buildings burned out or fallen into disrepair. 

Just determine which houses are still populated when the player starts looking into Schroedinger's Box.

It wouldn't be that weird to have two still-populated houses with one or more abandoned, condemned, or burned-down-but-not-rebuilt houses between them if nobody was there to care for them.

Can new cities be created after world gen in the current version? Perhaps the game could do a simulation update at the end of every X number of years and add new settlements if some prequisits were fulfilled. Presumably updating the simulation is what is needed for kings to be replaced etc, and entropy to be defeated.

Supposedly, we're eventually going to have the ability to for an adventurer to become a minor noble, and get lands of his/her own.  Hopefully, that would involve some sort of ability to claim some unclaimed land, offer lots of money to some peasants to help you build it up, and then build a new town from scratch, yourself. 

As a general concept, though, Toady seems to be building towards "the game runs like in Worldgen even once worldgen stops", which would mean all those things that happen in worldgen like expansion should still happen... although right now, most civs stop growing after a couple hundred years, and just keep pillaging the same empty cities over and over.

[Neonivek]

Anyhow I should congradulate Toady on the cities. They look much nicer and more organic now.

[Untelligent]

From the way he worded his devlog posts, I think we'll still see cities that are more like the ones in the first set of screenshots than the second set.


EDIT: I just realized the last screenshot from the second set looks a lot like what I was thinking of in the first line up there. So yeah, we'll be seeing those still.

[NW_Kohaku]

From the way he worded his devlog posts, I think we'll still see cities that are more like the ones in the first set of screenshots than the second set.


EDIT: I just realized the last screenshot from the second set looks a lot like what I was thinking of in the first line up there. So yeah, we'll be seeing those still.

I don't know, I see an awful lot of towns in the current worldgen with only 20-30 individuals alive in it, clustered around a small handful of towns with 100-200 individuals, and the most powerful and overpopulated (elven) empires have a single town with 900 individuals in it, surrounded by a bunch of 30-individual towns.

Of course, the formulas are always subject to change, but that's what I see right now.

[Jeoshua]

True, Koahu.  I think this new city system will mostly replace the differentiation between hamlet and town that exists now.  Meaning, I hope, that every hamlet will have some kind of commercial center.

[cephalo]

I have a question for Toady One. I've been toying around with a new fort location, and I've been wondering about where things are going regarding scarcity. I feel that there is a highly undesireable conflict between the principle of scarcity driving the value of materials versus the principle of having spoilerite on every map for dwarfy fictional reasons. In order to bring these two ideas into harmony, its seems necessary that dwarves should have their own economic niche in this regard.

Have you thought about whether dwarves should have an advantage to accessing resources that are deep underground? Do you think this should this be a purely cultural affinity for digging, or should there be some physiological reason why men and elves can't dig down and mine the spoilerite?

Spoilerite does become boring after a while. I want blue diamonds dammit! and no matter how much I cheat with material scarcity set to 100 and dfprospector and dfreveal, I can't find any. I want to believe that the reason for risking an encounter with the dark ones down below, is because of the a large amount of highly varied mineral wonders.

[Caldfir]

Spoilerite does become boring after a while. I want blue diamonds dammit! and no matter how much I cheat with material scarcity set to 100 and dfprospector and dfreveal, I can't find any. I want to believe that the reason for risking an encounter with the dark ones down below, is because of the a large amount of highly varied mineral wonders.

You could always try adding blue diamonds to the cotton candy deposits in the raws.  Or switch gems to occur in veins. 

On the other hand, I've had a few embarks practically overflowing with gems, but completely devoid of metals, so maybe you just need to be lucky?

[Quatch]

Morrowind was also problematic - there was a major bug that meant the game would be unplayable after certain periods of time because certain characters would gradually "shift" in their positions over time, eventually moving through walls in interior cells where they would become inaccessible.  See: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Glitches#Moving_NPCs

Haha, I remember this. Not sure why that's a necessary aspect of the system, though... sounds like just a weirdass solvable bug to me.

Sounds like the whole GIS positional accuracy problem. When you store a location as a real number it has a certain amount of precision. If your location in reality, does not happen to lie exactly on a spot of this position (imagine a grid of very high resolution, that is your precision, even in a vector storage system), you get rounded to the nearest spot. If you are repeatedly compared/intersected/otherwise interacted with other objects undergoing the same rounding you might get a systematic error (drift).

see, for more details: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/error/error_f.html , section 4.3. and http://www.geog.ubc.ca/courses/klink/gis.notes/new.ncgia/u26.htm#SEC26.3.4

I guess this would be an advantage to toady's grid.

[G-Flex]

Morrowind was also problematic - there was a major bug that meant the game would be unplayable after certain periods of time because certain characters would gradually "shift" in their positions over time, eventually moving through walls in interior cells where they would become inaccessible.  See: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Glitches#Moving_NPCs

Haha, I remember this. Not sure why that's a necessary aspect of the system, though... sounds like just a weirdass solvable bug to me.

Sounds like the whole GIS positional accuracy problem. When you store a location as a real number it has a certain amount of precision. If your location in reality, does not happen to lie exactly on a spot of this position (imagine a grid of very high resolution, that is your precision, even in a vector storage system), you get rounded to the nearest spot. If you are repeatedly compared/intersected/otherwise interacted with other objects undergoing the same rounding you might get a systematic error (drift).

True. However, this even applies to NPCs who shouldn't necessarily be moving at all. I mean, you have silt strider operators falling off their platforms offscreen for no reason, even though nothing even touches them.

[Jeoshua]

The rounding error was introduced by them shuffling on their feet.  The animations were not always 100% synced to come back to the exact starting point, and jumped a little bit.  So did their positions, and the game compensated by moving them 0.01 units to the North, every time the animation cycled.

They also walked around alot.

Neither one of these should be problems in DF due to it's grid system and lack of static animations.  Even if they do wander, it won't be due north.

[Mel_Vixen]

Hehe well lets make some bug-predictions then for the citys. ^^ its a tradition in here before the feature releases anyway.

Ok instead of objects being displaced its the souls that keep surfing around thus half the guards end up being theyr own swords. In addition to that certain citys are constantly on fire because somehow the robs of priest got set on fire near the magma-pool of the local temple.

Hehe its time we get another fix, update on the city development.

[Urist Imiknorris]

-Overlapping buildings
-Rivers will cause walls to go crazy
-Streets will go through fields
-Streets will go through walls (without gates, just the street cutting a hole in the wall)
-Shops are all owned by random peasants on the other side of town

[monk12]

-Moats will go through the city
-Cities will overlap the surroundings too much when they grow, meaning random farmers will have little hovels inside of the castle

[Quatch]

Neither one of these should be problems in DF due to it's grid system and lack of static animations.  Even if they do wander, it won't be due north.

For the moment, once we get multi-tile things moving, there will be reprojection and the possibility of this.

[NW_Kohaku]

Hehe well lets make some bug-predictions then for the citys. ^^ its a tradition in here before the feature releases anyway.

- Every citizen will try to live in the same house.  All other houses are empty.
- Wild animals will be spawned inside of homes.
- Tame animals such as yaks, dogs, and mysteriously enough, a lungfish will own houses and be treated as full civ members.
- A building type that was supported in the previous history of a town (such as a shop) before a mass die-off will be built in the middle of farmland because it was never subsequently removed.
- Houses will not respect the topography of the land they are built upon - they will be built several z-levels above the roads they supposedly connect to if they are built upon a slope.
- Failing that, and houses are forced to be on the same z-level as a road, houses built over the other end of the slope will hover in mid-air to be able to connect to the road.
- Cities will be built partially over tundra or glaciers that are Freezing, and citizens will die of the cold if they are spawned in those portions of the city that are in those biomes.
- The streams in the middle of the city will have hippos and alligators that are constantly aggravated into attacking citizens who come by for water, leading to a single legendary hippo killing half the populace some time you weren't looking, including the guys you were doing quests for.
- You are considered "trespassing" and hence, the entire population will hunt you down to kill you, if you accidentally enter any building that is not a shop.  There will be no outward sign which buildings are shops or not.
- Empty houses still have limitless food barrels, and you can take the property of potentially thousands of unclaimed homes (technically not stealing), and sell them for functionally infinite money.

... I'm having trouble coming up with more, but I think these should be fairly representative.