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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1612745 times)

tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #795 on: August 12, 2010, 02:50:42 pm »

To clarify, my questions were regarding the new entity population mechanics, which don't track the individual histories of each person, but rather the histories of groups of people. By the by, I don't think this is true:
I believe immigrants are already pulled from the entity population of the civilization you are embarking from.
To my knowledge, migrants are currently spawned ex nihilo. So long one member of your home civilization is alive, the number of migrants is unlimited.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #796 on: August 12, 2010, 04:31:15 pm »

So... now we have much more rivers and brooks we can get rid of the ponds, right?  ::)
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #797 on: August 12, 2010, 04:38:48 pm »

Spawning extra brooks and rivers is - in my opinion - a bad way. Normally Rain and aquifer-water should be enough for farming and if not herding sheep might be a good solution. I would say that the villages could have one mayor up to one well per field. Dry regions also developed often enough crops that could coop with the dryness. Hehe an droughts were and are a problem you have to deal with.

I would like to suggest "barns" for the food storage of the villages and atleast a small village square (with a village tree - a oak or a Lime tree). A smallish graveyard might also be nice.


Medieval landscape was extreme. The inhabited parts had a very high population density – no forests, only houses and farms. The wilderness was very virgin and untamed. Much unlike today.

Indeed, you can just look at satelite photos on google maps and see it for yourself, it really looks kinda like what was on screen-shots.

Well in the medieval times there was deforestation for 2 mayor things:

- making charcoal
- Building ships

The Roman Empire did use the wood mostly for charcoal thus for metalwork which ended in the fact that they had to import wood from the Kelts for high prices. Later the big countrys like Spain or great Britain etc. drained there forrests for these gigantic fleets. 

A Village will only deforest the area it needs for being self-sufficient everything else would be to Labor intensive.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 05:04:18 pm by Heph »
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #798 on: August 12, 2010, 05:03:29 pm »

I love how the new villages look alot more villagey then just a bunch of structures thrown around. This should be make them much more massive them before though, or will farms be thread as a different location altogheder?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 09:11:43 pm by Dakk »
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #799 on: August 12, 2010, 05:30:36 pm »

Spawning extra brooks and rivers is - in my opinion - a bad way. Normally Rain and aquifer-water should be enough for farming and if not herding sheep might be a good solution. I would say that the villages could have one mayor up to one well per field. Dry regions also developed often enough crops that could coop with the dryness. Hehe an droughts were and are a problem you have to deal with.
Actually, the improved river density is probably more realistic. Assuming a scale of 1 town DF=1 village now-real-life, there are streams every village, even those now that don't need any. What we do need is larger and fewer ponds, even the smallest ponds (in my area, at least) are many now-houses (bigger than then-houses) large, and they don't occur every 8 houses. The murky pools can really only fit 4 houses.

I see that the new farms look like shrubs. Will we be able to gather[p] those shrubs? Because that seems a little overkill, because it can feed 200 dwarves each year if they regrow.

Mindless speculation: Maybe our dwarves need to eat more per sitting now?
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #800 on: August 12, 2010, 05:55:38 pm »

The new river network looks fantastic! I've made a few river networks myself, and there's one thing I learned that might be of use while you're playing with it. I learned that when making a river network, there is no right answer for which way a river might flow, as long as it goes downhill. If you choose a random flow direction that is downhill the whole river network will still make sense with itself. So one thing you can do to make a really nice looking river network on a square grid is to never let a river run straight unless it's the only downhill option. So if a flow enters a square from the west, try to avoid letting it also leave to the west. This eliminates almost all the scenarios that might create a river that's too straight for too long, and does a good job of hiding the fact that were on a square grid.

As for displaying the river, I think the first example shows too few rivers and the next one shows too many. You might tune the amount of water needed for this or that size river so that it looks best. You might even consider a relative scale so that, for example, a fourth of all river lengths are major rivers etc. People love major rivers and tend to be dissapointed when they don't get any.
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Kilo24

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #801 on: August 12, 2010, 06:39:55 pm »

Well, being as you're setting up everything I could possibly say as either being "more micromangament" or "more automation", and BOTH are always bad, and we're only talking about this in the most utter abstract, tell me, Kilo, how, exactly, am I supposed to satisfy these mutually exclusive goals, especially when we're not even talking about the nuance or details, but just pure Gaming Philosophy?
The best rule of thumb that I can think of is if that a system does not encourage creative solutions to problems, then it should be either redesigned, scrapped, rendered invisible to the player (unless he specifically wants to see it), or automated as best as the game engine can handle.  The "encourage creative solutions to problems" is vague, and should be weighed against the strain that the system places on the player.

In other words, if an increase in farming complexity only gives us the crop diversity we have now but with extra work for the player (through, say, queueing watering or fertilization jobs), I'd oppose it strongly.  The more effects that encouraged creative solutions that it could have would lower my resistance (like letting other things affect quality of the soil such as fortress location and my aforementioned suggestions for events affecting salinity/acidity).  But I'd never want to force the player to waste any significant amount of time doing things that have no creativity involved.  That applies to all of Dwarf Fortress, and is at the core of at least my complaints about the UI.


Can you still make farming more complex and yet not either a constant micromanagement nightmare or just another roadblock to a new person and another wiki-dive for an experienced one?  Yes.  Suppose that a race of snail-men invade, and their acidic trails screw with the soil composition which kills off the crops that they walked over; but that also lets you import acid-loving plants and grow them too.  Suppose that the sea gods get annoyed with you and send a tidal wave that, in addition to the obvious effects, leaves a lot of salt on the ground that screws with the plants you can grow.  Or have the invading goblins who can't find a way into your fortress get frustrated and start salting the ground and the water supply you use to water your plants.  These things are unlikely to happen to a new player yet bring new challenges to an experienced one - that's the best kind of challenge I can think of.  Forcing you to do the same thing the same way for each fort isn't fun.

And here we go, the rare actual suggestion, which happens to be something already in the suggestion, but since people only talk about it in the abstract, they don't realize it.
Adding a system with little application happened rather frequently in DF's development.  Without keeping such suggestions that have an effect on gameplay at the forefront, then a system can't be accurately valued.

For adding systems in general, maybe it would be better to hard-code a few specific exceptions, then if those mesh with the game well, a separate powerful system can be designed that turns those exceptions into features of the system?  Just a bit of game-design musing.  *shrug*

I know that you, kilo24, are certainly capable of thoughtful discussion, and I would really welcome it if you would join the actual discussion, but when Improved Farming keeps getting dragged out into these arguments about abstract concepts about what Improved Farming will entail, it always involves arguments against things Improved Farming isn't, and people wishing Improved Farming were changed more towards becoming what it already is. 

The current round pretty much starts here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22015.450;start=%1$d
I've posted in there before, and I might do so again.  It still seemed to be mainly a discussion of how to make farming more complicated, realistic and time-consuming, without much focus on interesting and unique farming challenges.

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My idea of farming in Dwarf Fortress is:
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Anything more complicated is just bad design.
This could be a good UI - if it doesn't preclude the ability to specify more.  What farmers will automatically do with the simple "Farm!" command should be good crops, but not guaranteed to be the best for your given fortress.  Not because the game intentionally screws it up, but because the depth of the system is such that the game can't predict it accurately.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:17:31 pm by Kilo24 »
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #802 on: August 12, 2010, 06:49:22 pm »

The new river network looks fantastic! I've made a few river networks myself, and there's one thing I learned that might be of use while you're playing with it. I learned that when making a river network, there is no right answer for which way a river might flow, as long as it goes downhill. If you choose a random flow direction that is downhill the whole river network will still make sense with itself. So one thing you can do to make a really nice looking river network on a square grid is to never let a river run straight unless it's the only downhill option. So if a flow enters a square from the west, try to avoid letting it also leave to the west. This eliminates almost all the scenarios that might create a river that's too straight for too long, and does a good job of hiding the fact that were on a square grid.

As for displaying the river, I think the first example shows too few rivers and the next one shows too many. You might tune the amount of water needed for this or that size river so that it looks best. You might even consider a relative scale so that, for example, a fourth of all river lengths are major rivers etc. People love major rivers and tend to be dissapointed when they don't get any.

Well toady can take the geology into account too. So stuff that erodes faster is more likely to become the riverbed and rivers will flow around things like Granit deposits at some point. There are a number of things that can be done in a very natural way.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #803 on: August 12, 2010, 10:39:18 pm »

Spawning extra brooks and rivers is - in my opinion - a bad way. Normally Rain and aquifer-water should be enough for farming and if not herding sheep might be a good solution. I would say that the villages could have one mayor up to one well per field. Dry regions also developed often enough crops that could coop with the dryness. Hehe an droughts were and are a problem you have to deal with.

Desert farmers, which basically means the likes of the Middle East or North Africa, farmed their land either through irrigation by rivers (especially by digging canals, which were giant state projects to help feed their populations) or through the use of springs and wells tapping aquifers.  In a DF unlimited aquifer landscape, a desert aquifer, of course, carries none of the risk of depletion (and doesn't have that pesky iron oxide dissolved in the water, either).

I honestly think that a better way to handle keeping enough water around for farmers (other than limitless aquifers, which aren't nearly the hassle when you don't need to dig beneath them, anyway) would be to have farms that are open to air simply take rain water as effective irrigation.  That way, you can have farms that grow crops appropriate for the rainfall of the region that grow there (if, perhaps, not the most regular crop yields because there isn't absolute control over the water supply).

Well in the medieval times there was deforestation for 2 mayor things:

- making charcoal
- Building ships

The Roman Empire did use the wood mostly for charcoal thus for metalwork which ended in the fact that they had to import wood from the Kelts for high prices. Later the big countrys like Spain or great Britain etc. drained there forrests for these gigantic fleets. 

A Village will only deforest the area it needs for being self-sufficient everything else would be to Labor intensive.

Actually, there's plenty of examples of nations that completely devestated themselves through deforestation.  It's actually believed that the Greek city states fell (and gave Rome the chance to rise) because they cut down so many of their trees that they largely stripped their nation bare, and let the soil get swept out to sea, which impared their ability to feed their people (and destroyed their ability to make the navies that made them so powerful in the Mediterranean), and so they fell into decline.  The entire "Mediterranean Climate" is actually a man-made climate generated of a deforested forest climate. 

The city state of Teotihuacan, as well, in ancient Native American Mexico, often has its fall traced to its deforestation - especially for the high-temperature (high-fuel) fires it used to constantly re-apply its propoganda murals, and also, as that website I like says, "the massive deforestation of the surrounding area to produce limestone caused the drying up of streams and erosions of fields, ruining the surrounding farmland."

In fact, the start of the Industrial Revolution can be traced to the time when England managed to almost totally devastate its hardwood forests, at which point it turned to mining coal, which it had abundant supplies of, for fuel, which required a machine that could pump water out of the coal mines, which gave birth to the coal-fired steam engine that revolutionized the world.

Frankly, just look at how we players strip the land bare in ever-widening circles as our fortress needs more and more wood for beds, barrels, and fuel for industry.  If something can be made of stone or something you can grow on a farm, or glass if you have sand and a magma , you use those first.  If not, and something can be made of wood, you make it of wood.  If not, then you make it out of metal.

The best rule of thumb that I can think of is if that a system does not encourage creative solutions to problems, then it should be either redesigned, scrapped, rendered invisible to the player (unless he specifically wants to see it), or automated as best as the game engine can handle.  The "encourage creative solutions to problems" is vague, and should be weighed against the strain that the system places on the player.

In other words, if an increase in farming complexity only gives us the crop diversity we have now but with extra work for the player (through, say, queueing watering or fertilization jobs), I'd oppose it strongly.  The more effects that encouraged creative solutions that it could have would lower my resistance (like letting other things affect quality of the soil such as fortress location and my aforementioned suggestions for events affecting salinity/acidity).  But I'd never want to force the player to waste any significant amount of time doing things that have no creativity involved.  That applies to all of Dwarf Fortress, and is at the core of at least my complaints about the UI.

First off, be careful about the difference between slashes and backslashes.  :P  Also, leaving a break of a couple lines between [/quote] and the response really helps people who might quote you in the future, even if you don't make that mistake.

Anyway, as I've been repeatedly trying to say, this is exactly the sort of thing I have been doing my best to include - whether through aquaducts, sewage and waste treatment, pests that offer dynamic problems, and expanded types of crops, including biome-specific forms of crops and massive increases in crop diversity.  I honestly have trouble thinking of anything more to put into it, and if you can, by all means, do add to it.  (Although I would prefer a swarm of locusts attacking your farm and maybe at the most the acidic slugs over "Poseidon crashes a tidal wave on you"... when you're in a cave.)
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Kilo24

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #804 on: August 13, 2010, 12:40:02 am »

I honestly think that a better way to handle keeping enough water around for farmers (other than limitless aquifers, which aren't nearly the hassle when you don't need to dig beneath them, anyway) would be to have farms that are open to air simply take rain water as effective irrigation.  That way, you can have farms that grow crops appropriate for the rainfall of the region that grow there (if, perhaps, not the most regular crop yields because there isn't absolute control over the water supply).

That's something I quite like, actually.  It'd make the crops easier to maintain at the cost of limiting the growing season and exposing the crops to a less defensible area.

The best rule of thumb that I can think of is if that a system does not encourage creative solutions to problems, then it should be either redesigned, scrapped, rendered invisible to the player (unless he specifically wants to see it), or automated as best as the game engine can handle.  The "encourage creative solutions to problems" is vague, and should be weighed against the strain that the system places on the player.

In other words, if an increase in farming complexity only gives us the crop diversity we have now but with extra work for the player (through, say, queueing watering or fertilization jobs), I'd oppose it strongly.  The more effects that encouraged creative solutions that it could have would lower my resistance (like letting other things affect quality of the soil such as fortress location and my aforementioned suggestions for events affecting salinity/acidity).  But I'd never want to force the player to waste any significant amount of time doing things that have no creativity involved.  That applies to all of Dwarf Fortress, and is at the core of at least my complaints about the UI.

First off, be careful about the difference between slashes and backslashes.  :P  Also, leaving a break of a couple lines between [ /quote ] and the response really helps people who might quote you in the future, even if you don't make that mistake.

Anyway, as I've been repeatedly trying to say, this is exactly the sort of thing I have been doing my best to include - whether through aquaducts, sewage and waste treatment, pests that offer dynamic problems, and expanded types of crops, including biome-specific forms of crops and massive increases in crop diversity.  I honestly have trouble thinking of anything more to put into it, and if you can, by all means, do add to it.  (Although I would prefer a swarm of locusts attacking your farm and maybe at the most the acidic slugs over "Poseidon crashes a tidal wave on you"... when you're in a cave.)

Yeah, I was under a time crunch then and didn't look at the preview.

I guess that the main point we differ on is that I'd like the system to be either trivialized or the default settings to be good enough that, outside of those dynamic problems, it takes a minimum of effort to maintain and establish.  You're not as worried about keeping the effort to maintain and establish it low.  Is that a fair assessment?

About the tidal wave, there are a few things to potentially justify it; maybe it's really the only way the god can influence your fortress, or he doesn't know you've only started pissing him off after you made your fortress watertight.  It's still a bit contrived, but not *that* bad.  In any case, this specific issue's not that important.

As for more stuff to add to farming (and this applies to pretty much every system), remember that Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy setting.  The vast majority of modern-day attention to fantastic elements within fantasy has gone into making combat more dramatic, but there's still a lot more to old tales and the potential of the fantasy setting than that.  Dwarf Fortress has the rare opportunity of having systems with fantasy elements that impact much more than hit point totals.  IMO, Toady should not be shy to include fantasy elements that are unique among modern fantasy (even if they're completely made up on the spot and have no mythological basis) *especially* if they are responsible for integrating systems into gameplay that would otherwise be not relevant enough to justify their complexity.  That makes for both a more tightly designed game and a more interesting setting (and really shouldn't wait until the Magic arc, because these elements need to be tested in order to be integrated well.)

As an example for improved farming we could have very hard-to-grow plants that became as hard as steel when they were pulled from the ground (providing an alternative to the metalsmithing industry if you managed to get the rare seeds and had the skills of a legendary grower), or forgotten beasts could breathe a mist that would spread across the crops and turn them into nigh-unkillable poisonous-spider-spawning weeds that would start to grow everywhere and could only be purged with fire.  Or a plant with poisonous paralytic thorns could be cultivated then transplanted to the sides of your entry hall, and a creative trap could make a floor that would tilt and slide anyone in the hall into the plants to serve as further fertilizer.  Maybe a plant could create gold or adamantine flowers that could be melted down and reused, but require large piles of corpses of a specific race to grow in. 
I'd be perfectly fine with making these plants be hard to grow because they, unlike food, are not a basic necessity for a fortress.  In my mind, exploiting possibilities like these would justify the added hassle of Improved Farming as discussed in that thread.

And in general, I'd really love to see each new system in DF be added with a few dramatic but non-essential ways to exploit them, even if it's based in a fantasy world and not reality.  That provides motivation to learn the new system, a clear indication to the players that the game is getting deeper and not just more complex, and most importantly a example for all the creative stuff that the game eventually will fully handle that Toady can experiment with to figure out what are and aren't fun mechanics.  At worst, they can be set up so they can be disabled in the raws, but I think it'd dramatically improve the game for pretty much everyone.

He's definitely already done a good few things which I'd lump into that category: the new HFS, the underground with its forests, the magma sea, forgotten beasts.  If the arsenal dwarf had a significant positive effect instead of a negative one I'd lump it there too, but it was essential for a military - I really appreciate Toady putting the position in, learning from that experiment and removing the position.  I'd love to see dramatic experiments with each new system, however.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #805 on: August 13, 2010, 08:16:59 am »

I guess that the main point we differ on is that I'd like the system to be either trivialized or the default settings to be good enough that, outside of those dynamic problems, it takes a minimum of effort to maintain and establish.  You're not as worried about keeping the effort to maintain and establish it low.  Is that a fair assessment?

Not really, I love conceptualizing systems, and I love poking around and understanding all their interrelations with all the surrounding systems, but I'm not a fan of micromanagement at all.  I actually prefer the idea that it's hard to make the farms, but that once the system is established, it is totally automatable if you are careful enough at finding a way to balance them.

I only put in more dynamic problems that take player intervention, like "disasters" because people kept asking for it - I rather prefer playing Dwarf Fortress by leaving it unpaused and walking away while it chugs along at 6 FPS in a 200-dwarf fort that produces rediculous oversupplies of every product, and having designated some 300 tiles of a megaproject at a time for the game to complete actually doing while I'm away.

Having to occassionally check and make sure my lumber industry is keeping pace with my demand for charcoal is actually a bit annoying for me, so I want as much automatable as I can, excepting the most interesting aspect of the game - the ability to design the system in the first place.  (Which is, again, why I enjoy the front-load of the work.)
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Cespinarve

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #806 on: August 13, 2010, 10:16:54 am »

Will there be an adjustment on the way rust works in regards to skills? As is, in forts where there aren't a lot of injuries, it's frustrating that the moment you really need your legendary surgeon, he's so rusty as to be almost useless.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #807 on: August 13, 2010, 01:54:56 pm »

Will there be an adjustment on the way rust works in regards to skills? As is, in forts where there aren't a lot of injuries, it's frustrating that the moment you really need your legendary surgeon, he's so rusty as to be almost useless.

I think Toady said that rust only reduces skill by half and it goes away after a single job.
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #808 on: August 13, 2010, 02:57:27 pm »


I think Toady said that rust only reduces skill by half and it goes away after a single job.

If the rust has accumulated a great deal, it can take as many as 20 jobs. I've seen it myself. I too was bothered by the fact that all doctors eventually become peasants. However, I can't say that my dabbling doctors are doing a bad job with the healthcare. In fact I see no difference from a highly skilled immigrant doctor to my original peasant doctor who has lost all his skills.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #809 on: August 13, 2010, 04:01:01 pm »

Well, maybe your doctors progressed beyond rust and actually started to lose their skills. I guess you could set up a device where any dwarf attempting to enter your dining room had a small chance to fall through a hatch and break a leg on the ground a couple stories below, giving your doctors plenty of jobs to keep busy.
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