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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1611496 times)

Sowelu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4485 on: April 15, 2011, 04:08:10 pm »

Yeah, perfect sewer compromise.
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Miuramir

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4486 on: April 15, 2011, 04:12:52 pm »

Well, a little google-fu reveals this:  http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-History-674/Sewers.htm

Quote
First, the Romans did not invent sewers.  Many ancient civilizations, including the Babylonians had them.  There have even been some evidence of small sewer systems in Scotland dating back to 3000 BC.  ...

An interesting example in this discussion is Mohenjo-daro, which was originally built in 2600 BC and abandoned around 1500 BC.  It was destroyed and rebuilt about seven times over those 1,100 years; it is believed mostly due to major flooding.  (In general terms, the city's structures and even foundation weren't reliably proof against 100-year floods.)   Some selected quotes to spark thought:
Quote
Mohenjo-daro is located in Sindh, Pakistan on a Pleistocene ridge in the middle of the flood plain of the Indus River Valley. The ridge is now buried by the flooding of the plains, but was prominent during the time of the Indus Valley Civilization. The ridge allowed the city to stand above the surrounding plain. The site occupies a central position between the Indus River valley on the west and the Ghaggar-Hakra river on the east. The Indus still flows to the east of the site, but the Ghaggar-Hakra riverbed is now dry.
...
Anthropogenic construction over the years was precipitated by the need for more room. The ridge was expanded via giant mud brick platforms. Ultimately, the settlement grew to such proportions that some buildings reached 12 meters above the level of the modern plain, and therefore much higher than this above the ancient plain.
So one of the most successful large early cities planetwide was at the intersection of a huge river trade network (the Indus valley), and another river system, situated on a geographically prominent ridge.  The more I research, the more I'm convinced that the basic recipe for a successful early major city is to place it on (comparatively) high ground along a major river, around or near some other significant trade feature... another river, the ocean, an overland caravan route, etc. 

Quote
Mohenjo-daro has a planned layout based on a street-grid of rectilinear buildings. Most are of fired and mortared brick; some incorporate sun dried mud-brick and wooden superstructures. The sheer size of the city, and its provision of public buildings and facilities, suggests high levels of social organisation. At its peak of development, Mohenjo-Daro could have housed around 35,000 residents.

The city had a central marketplace, with a large central well. Individual households or groups of households obtained their water from smaller wells. Waste water was channeled to covered drains that lined the major streets. Some houses, presumably those of wealthier inhabitants, include rooms that appear to have been set aside for bathing, and one building had an underground furnace (hypocaust), possibly for heated bathing. Most house have inner courtyards, with doors that opened onto side-lanes. Some buildings were two-storeyed.
...
Close to the "Great Granary" is a large and elaborate public bath, sometimes called the Great Bath. From a colonnaded courtyard, steps lead down to the brick-built pool, which was waterproofed by a lining of bitumen. The pool is large – 12m long, 7m wide and 2.4m deep. It may have been used for religious purification.
...
Mohenjo-daro had no circuit of city walls but was otherwise well fortified, with towers to the west of the main settlement, and defensive fortifications to the south.
...
The city is divided into two parts, the so-called Citadel and the Lower City. Most of the Lower City is yet to be uncovered, but the Citadel is known to have the public bath, a large residential structure designed to house 5,000 citizens and two large assembly halls.

In general, Mohenjo-daro had water and sanitation infrastructure that most folks would not have expected until the sanitation of the Roman Empire; by comparison, Rome had the first simple open sewers between 800 BC and 735 BC, more major work around 600 BC, the main Cloaca Maxima not enclosed until 33 BC, and the system generally in full form by around 100 AD.  A possibly relevant quote for those looking for early "adventurer-compatible sewers", from Strabo's Geographica (info dates from the ~20 BC to ~23 AD range):
Quote
The sewers, covered with a vault of tightly fitted stones, have room in some places for hay wagons to drive through them.
The main failing in the overuse of the Absurdly Spacious Sewer trope isn't that they didn't exist (see the extensive Real Life section on that page for some more examples), it's that they were historically a rare feature of the world's major cities only.  Too many video games put a Paris-scale catacombs + sewer under some tiny starting town. 
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Sowelu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4487 on: April 15, 2011, 04:32:17 pm »

The main failing in the overuse of the Absurdly Spacious Sewer trope isn't that they didn't exist (see the extensive Real Life section on that page for some more examples), it's that they were historically a rare feature of the world's major cities only.  Too many video games put a Paris-scale catacombs + sewer under some tiny starting town.

Eh, it can work in fantasy games that have a LOOOONG history behind them, where even a dinky town might have been built on ancient ruins (hey!  free plumbing!).
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4488 on: April 15, 2011, 07:12:10 pm »

Next up: Grids of axles under cities for supplying power.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4489 on: April 15, 2011, 07:20:36 pm »

The main failing in the overuse of the Absurdly Spacious Sewer trope isn't that they didn't exist (see the extensive Real Life section on that page for some more examples), it's that they were historically a rare feature of the world's major cities only.  Too many video games put a Paris-scale catacombs + sewer under some tiny starting town.

Eh, it can work in fantasy games that have a LOOOONG history behind them, where even a dinky town might have been built on ancient ruins (hey!  free plumbing!).

Well, one of the OTHER cliches of RPGs, especially JRPGs, (such as, for example, everything ever made by Squaresoft, Enix, or Squarenix) is that your peaceful agrarian society that is trapped in the Dark Ages was built upon the ruins of a much more advanced civilization with laser-shooting robots, and the villain is using technology to destroy the world.  Because remember kids, technology is evil! (Except when it's a prototype that only you can use, and refuse to allow to be understood or replicated.) Now smash that loom like a good Luddite!
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4490 on: April 15, 2011, 07:30:57 pm »

That's far less common than you seem to be implying, but that's neither here nor there.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4491 on: April 15, 2011, 08:15:12 pm »

Yeah, I'm actually really confused by that, as I can think of no Square-specific examples.  I've played FF 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Tactics, and Mystic Quest... I've got nothing.

Secret of Evermore, maybe?... I don't remember that one so clearly, but I think it was in there.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4492 on: April 15, 2011, 08:34:09 pm »

Yeah, I'm actually really confused by that, as I can think of no Square-specific examples.  I've played FF 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Tactics, and Mystic Quest... I've got nothing.

Secret of Evermore, maybe?... I don't remember that one so clearly, but I think it was in there.

What are you talking about?

Final Fantasies 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, and 12 all have this.  All the "good" towns are farming villages, and all the "evil empires" are built upon machinery, typically reverse-engineered from some sort of Ancients from a fallen civilization.  8 only doesn't have it because they're still modern, and 13 has their ancient precursors still alive and villainous.  They even directly declare the ancients were destroyed because of abuse of either technology or magitek by either overusing or trying to flood their world with more of their technology's energy source or magic.

All the Seiken Densetsu series games are based upon it - they even open Secret of Mana talking about how the ancient evil empire fell because of their abuse of magitek.

Final Fantasy Tactics and both Final Fantasy Tactics Advances have ancient mechanic cities and special characters based around being engineers who work on ancient machines dug up from the past.  It's not even an important plot point in those cases, they just do it because they're so used to having ancient civilizations that fell because of their technology that they don't even have to explain it.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4493 on: April 15, 2011, 09:23:05 pm »

... I'm still confused.  Some of those games you list are straight high fantasy, like 1 and 4.  In others, I didn't see technology portrayed as something evil.  The only case of that I can think of is in 6 (given it's the one I'm most familiar with), where it's fueled by the sacrifice of intelligent beings... and one of the major rebel forces has its home in a big techno castle.

It's not that bad a trope, anyway.  Technology often increases need for resources, which fuels expansionism and violence.  If such abuse is taken to its logical conclusion, this can lead to fallen civilizations, which makes for interesting game settings where there's history and cool stuff to uncover and experiment with.
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Sowelu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4494 on: April 16, 2011, 12:53:59 am »

The greater the civilization, the greater its potential for evil.  Outside of the horror genre, small farming villages just aren't /capable/ of being evil.  Also, adventuring in a powerful and advanced empire at the height of its nobility doesn't make for very good gameplay.  It kind of needs to have fallen apart, or else the "Hey monsters are everywhere so you have something to do" part doesn't make sense.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4495 on: April 16, 2011, 01:02:56 am »

Well that is mostly due to free time.

You need to be well off to have enough free time to be evil. (also small farming villages can MORE then be evil... even outside of the horror genre)

As for "needs to be falling appart" that all depends really. I realise that right now Megabeasts and Semi-megabeasts pretty much stink SO MUCH that the only reason they are surviving world generation is because the game alters things in their favor. If the monsters could reasonable survive a cities' defense force, unlike now, then by all means "Please stop that beast". Especially since a megabeast could simply go where armies cannot.
-Afterall the original Hydra was pretty much suicide to fight against and Dragons lived in deep caves on tall mountains.

As well you also have to remember resources. Bandits often succeeded not because an army couldn't stop or even find them but because they were so low on the importance of a great empire that there was little in terms of resources that they would spend fighting them. Some fiction includes dungeons brimming with evil that are relatively harmless, killing a few people a year, but even whole brigades have been unable to quell essentially making them complacent.

Then there is of course stealth, organisational ties, comming back to life, having armies of their own.

There are ways to do it.
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kaypy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4496 on: April 16, 2011, 01:57:12 am »

... I'm still confused.  Some of those games you list are straight high fantasy, like 1
High fantasy robot death machine
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4497 on: April 16, 2011, 02:12:42 am »

Well to admit the idea of robots even in fantasy is actually a very old concept.

Norse Mythology and Greek Mythology had mechanical animals of incredible power.

This is of course ignoring the robot people created in mythology as well.

THOUGH to admit depictions of these mechanical beasts were usually very lifelike. So it is likely that they were just crafted to life rather then machines as we know them.

I'd say Jewish mythology... but I think Golems were less "myth" and more "Fable" (That and they were brought to life with good old sorcery)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 02:19:12 am by Neonivek »
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Kogut

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4498 on: April 16, 2011, 03:44:52 am »

Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock) topic is here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82309.msg2183808#msg2183808
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4499 on: April 16, 2011, 03:19:02 pm »

You need to be well off to have enough free time to be evil. (also small farming villages can MORE then be evil... even outside of the horror genre)
*ahem* http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html
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