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[NW_Kohaku]

I'm not saying that their personalities have to be defined by one particular archetype, which is just bad writing, but that it gives a quick way for players to be able to understand something about the character.  (And I was thinking Shrinking Violet.)

I'm not saying that you can't give characters quirks or that we have to get rid of all the traits, and only deal with archetypes, but that it gives the player a lot more information in a much shorter amount of space, since it relies more upon how the player already percieves and categorizes the world.  You can say "Grouchy old man" and then follow up with "who has strict self-discipline" and "a deadly fear of mice" as further details.

In fact, I think I'm going to have to call you on what you think that dwarf whose set of personality traits I read out means...  Let me see if I read the same thing into it that you read into it. 

I give my dwarves nicknames based upon what I read in their details menu so that I can at least try to tell them apart, and frankly, I generally just devolve into calling dwarves stuff like "Silverboots" because she likes silver and boots, since the "likes" stuff is far simpler to read.  If you can get something close to what I came up with when I nicknamed my dwarf in the game, then I'll admit that maybe you have some point.  But really, I am unusual in that I spend much, if any, time at all caring about what's on every single one of my dwarfves' personality pages.

[Beardless]

While, having the personality affect the work ethic, or if they like their job.

Certain personality aspects already affect a dwarf's work ethic. Over the last several forts I've played, I've found three dwarves that consistently annoy the f#$&* out of me because they never do their damn job. Every one of them "is occasionally given to procrastination," or "has very little self-discipline." It's consistent enough that I never assign critical skills to dwarves with those personality traits any more.

[Mel_Vixen]

In fact, I think I'm going to have to call you on what you think that   dwarf whose set of personality traits I read out means...  Let me see if   I read the same thing into it that you read into it. 

Well the traits you gave me were:

Now, what if I describe to you a person who, "rarely feels discouraged,   is self-conscoius, somewhat reserved, enjoys thrills, lives life at a   leisurely pace, and constantly strives for perfection", then you'd   probably have a bit more trouble.  Especially since some of those things   kind of contradict one another. 

So i would say s/he is a Perfectionist which takes her/his time and is a bit distanced to society. To reach said perfectionism s/he might choose a risky path of action mre often then s/he used the safe way.

[NW_Kohaku]

I called her "Hummingstone", because the thing I got out of that was that she liked to be all by herself, and was cheerful as long as she could be alone, working on her own pet projects.  I couldn't work "thrills" in at all, so I just skipped it.  In fact, when I went about creating my own stories in my head about that fortress, I was a little saddened and dissapointed, because I had forgotten some of the personality traits of the dwarves, and they weren't what I had in my head, since I had focused on just a few of them at a time.  The dwarf I had as a bookkeeper that I thought of as a sullen bookened to the hyperactive mayor actually had "optimistic" as a personality trait.

Now then, lightning round time.  Pick a fortress you have had around for a while, (preferably at least 60 dwarves) and gotten really attached to.  Describe to me the personalities of as many dwarves as you can without having a look at their details page (looking at the list on the units page is fine), just from what you can remember of them from playing with them. 

Then copy up the traits from the details page, for comparison.  Also, list the percentage of the fort whose personalities you actually could remember or looked at in the first place.

[EmeraldWind]

I'm not saying that their personalities have to be defined by one particular archetype, which is just bad writing, but that it gives a quick way for players to be able to understand something about the character.  (And I was thinking Shrinking Violet.)

I'm not saying that you can't give characters quirks or that we have to get rid of all the traits, and only deal with archetypes, but that it gives the player a lot more information in a much shorter amount of space, since it relies more upon how the player already percieves and categorizes the world.  You can say "Grouchy old man" and then follow up with "who has strict self-discipline" and "a deadly fear of mice" as further details.

In fact, I think I'm going to have to call you on what you think that dwarf whose set of personality traits I read out means...  Let me see if I read the same thing into it that you read into it. 

I give my dwarves nicknames based upon what I read in their details menu so that I can at least try to tell them apart, and frankly, I generally just devolve into calling dwarves stuff like "Silverboots" because she likes silver and boots, since the "likes" stuff is far simpler to read.  If you can get something close to what I came up with when I nicknamed my dwarf in the game, then I'll admit that maybe you have some point.  But really, I am unusual in that I spend much, if any, time at all caring about what's on every single one of my dwarfves' personality pages.

Basically, it sounds to me, that you don't some much want to get rid of the old personality system.  But instead you want to add a more easily read and understood personality archetype system. 

Instead of saying, "Urist rarely feels discouraged, likes to work, prefers to have work done quickly, chooses not to associate with others." It could say, "Urist is a workaholic with no time for friends."  Instead of saying, "Fikod likes to procrastinate, is very creative, likes to makes works of art." It could say, "Fikod is an artist that rarely has the drive to get work done."

It doesn't some much get rid of the numbers and multiple traits, but blends them together in a way that conveys personality quicker and with less though.

But in the background.. Urist still has his values and each still has their effect on him (if any).  And Fikod might be a procrastinator, but maybe if the value is low enough his like of art might trump his procrastination and would therefore effect his work.  For example, if Fikod was a Engraver, you might find he procrastinates smoothing stone (not being creative or art), but goes to work right away when told to engrave.

Thus, you have an easier to read personality type, but have all potential of the current system.

[NW_Kohaku]

Something like that could work, although it might be unweildy to try to have a giant chart of trait combos that get spelled out differently.

I was thinking more like rolling on a chart for a big "archetype" personality trait, which has a package of traits that fall out of it, then skew it a little by rolling up some more small traits.

That way, you could still roll "The Libby", which would mean a few traits (and maybe a skew on the spirit attributes roll or something, or perhaps the archetype roll could somehow be influenced by the spirit attributes) get put on, and then get three or four other traits.

... This is really starting to slide into "just make a suggestion thread" territory, though.

[caknuck]

I see no mention of parties, musical instruments or toys in the new short-term goals.
Are behaviours involving this type of item going to be put on hold, or will the new inns and such include them.

I, for one, would like to see Musician and Singer skills added. I envision a random harpist wandering through the fort, generating happy thoughts for my dorfs, gathering a few bored idlers on the way, eventually winding up at the statue garden (or inn, perhaps?) where a little soirée starts up. I also see this playing into religious services when priests and temples are implemented in 14 years or so.

[CharlesPeter]

I think the musician and singer skills would be interesting. I feel a dabbling/novice singer and musician would cause bad thoughts and maybe even grudges (if the other person loved good music enough), so they would have to go and practice in their own room. Then when they got better, they could start making happy thoughts.

[Knigel]

I don't think the game should use archetype-based personality development, because the only reason people get away with such archetypes is when they find fresh ways to utilize them which a computer program can't do.

I agree that the "list of number-based personality traits" doesn't make a comprehensible personality but that's not where you should be looking for such a thing. You should tell what's effectively a dwarf's personality by the actions that they take, just like you do with people in real life.

Sort of like how the current weapon system, instead of just using a "this material does x damage", actually models the physical properties these materials have in real life and thus finding out the best materials required testing.

I see no mention of parties, musical instruments or toys in the new short-term goals.
Are behaviours involving this type of item going to be put on hold, or will the new inns and such include them.

I, for one, would like to see Musician and Singer skills added. I envision a random harpist wandering through the fort, generating happy thoughts for my dorfs, gathering a few bored idlers on the way, eventually winding up at the statue garden (or inn, perhaps?) where a little soirée starts up. I also see this playing into religious services when priests and temples are implemented in 14 years or so.

Maybe musical skills can be like weapon skills: the Musician skill could be one that affects use of any musical ability just like Fighter and Archer affect all melee and ranged combat, then there could be skills for each instrument or type of singing like there are for all weapons and unarmed combat.

And the types of instruments (woodwind, brass, however your categorize them) could be separated by what attributes they use, like breath-operated instruments requiring endurance.

[MrWiggles]

Playing with toys, and singing, and using musical instruments feel more like antics then behaviors for the dorfs. I think the ESV has a thing about more antics.

[therahedwig]

I dunno about getting rid of the personality traits. I mean, the sims 3 moved over to a similar system, though it should be noted all traits had profound effect on the behaviour of the sim. An evil sim would steal candy from babies, an athletic sim would automically work-out, a sim who loved the outdoors would prefer to be outside. This also affected what kind of moodlets (additions and substractions to their general happiness) they would get.
A sim with the loner personality trait would get a negative moodlet of being in a crowd. The system however didn't have points of seriousness, which arguably makes it less complicate then the DF system.

I guess, for me the personality traits just need better descriptors and more profound effect, and I'd be happy.

I have to admit I'm not too fond of a archetype system. Sure, it may convey information more quickly, but I just don't feel like having a fort filled with moe-moe dwarves. (You know that somewhere there's an RNG who would roll that)

[zwei]

Well, caring about personality traits is possible if you have 7 dwarves, but once you get closer to tripple digits than single... there is just no way i am going to familiarize myself with dwarf beyond basic labor assigment when they immigrate.

I would love to be able to easily match labors for dwarves by their personality. Some ability to ask game who is best Fisherdwarf that will take all the details into account (dwarf with preferences to fish, liking outdoors, procastrinating/lazy so that he wont overfish too fast and ideally with some skill ranks...).

There was suggestion with "HR" dorf that manages labor assigments to which you give worker template and amount of workers for it which you desire, template that would not only contain labor assigments, but also prefered presonalities and likes.

[Areyar]

If it would be possible to extract/export the dorf descriptor data (preferably in some sort of spreedsheet form), then a program such as excell would allow you to sort your dorfs by ability...I'm sure multiple criteria can be used. So that you could rank dorfs on liking outdoors>procastrinating.

Is it doable to add data export functionality to dorfmode?
(For exporting fortress population and their individual characteristics.)

(Note that this is not a suggestion, but rather informing about the feasability.)

[tps12]

I would love to be able to easily match labors for dwarves by their personality. Some ability to ask game who is best Fisherdwarf that will take all the details into account (dwarf with preferences to fish, liking outdoors, procastrinating/lazy so that he wont overfish too fast and ideally with some skill ranks...).

In a simulation, "all the details" are highly context-dependent: if you breach a cavern full of water then "likes the outdoors" is suddenly a much less important qualification for a fisherdwarf. The only way to tell how the simulation is going to play out is by...running the simulation.

The upshot is that the HR idea makes a lot of sense, because any kind of heuristics or rules of thumb along these lines are inevitably going to fail, in which case it'll be important to have someone to blame. (Just like real life.)

[Bryan Derksen]

I always try to make sure that at least one of my medical dwarves likes helping people and isn't prone to procrastination. I've found that this results in much more prompt medical care and feeding/watering of patients, which literally means the difference between life and death for my wounded.

I have also, once, discovered that it was a bad idea to assign a dwarf to the military when he's quick to become enraged and hates authority. He snapped and murdered someone within a matter of days.

Other than that, though, I tend to ignore personality too. It's just too tedious checking them, though Dwarf Therapist at least shows personality stats on mouseover.