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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1612207 times)

zwei

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2625 on: December 16, 2010, 05:33:56 am »

...

He also considers animals huge part of it, nothing how lack of variety of easily domesticated animals affected americas/africa/australia

Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2626 on: December 16, 2010, 06:19:15 am »

Define 'easilly domesticated', domesticated animals are generally descended from wild forebears that were as wild as those from other regions.
Some of our most domestic animals tend to originate in africa; cows, horses, cats. Dogs and pigs are probably eurasian.
Llamas etc are tamish, cangaroos are also pretty easilly held. iirc.
Domesticatioin in Aus/americas more likely is less because of humans getting there rather later and already having some preferred animals from Africa/europe/asia.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2627 on: December 16, 2010, 06:52:18 am »

Define 'easilly domesticated', domesticated animals are generally descended from wild forebears that were as wild as those from other regions.
Some of our most domestic animals tend to originate in africa; cows, horses, cats. Dogs and pigs are probably eurasian.
Llamas etc are tamish, cangaroos are also pretty easilly held. iirc.
Domesticatioin in Aus/americas more likely is less because of humans getting there rather later and already having some preferred animals from Africa/europe/asia.

there are wild beast with fangs and wild beast without fangs. I'd put this latter category in 'easily domesticated'

how they managed to domesticate wolves so easily and so early remains a mystery to me.
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Rose

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2628 on: December 16, 2010, 07:03:25 am »

sharing meat, perhaps?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2629 on: December 16, 2010, 07:12:43 am »

how they managed to domesticate wolves so easily and so early remains a mystery to me.

Because of the strict hierarchy of their social instincts?

Assert dominance.  Done.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2630 on: December 16, 2010, 07:16:40 am »

There are wild dog species, I'm not sure about the order of decendance here, but I like to think it is wolf>wilddog>modern dog, not wolf>dog>wilddog.
Predomesticated pigs have fangs, so do cats. Elephant have tusks...uh so do boar.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2631 on: December 16, 2010, 07:19:26 am »

sharing meat, perhaps?

here! have my arm. nice puppy.

nah, won't work.  :D
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Rose

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2632 on: December 16, 2010, 07:23:10 am »

Wild cattle were also very ill tempered. still shows in a lot of Asian breeds, actually, who, as far as I know, didn't go through much of the selective breeding that western breeds did.
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ungulateman

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2633 on: December 16, 2010, 07:47:57 am »

Dogs are an interesting case. Here's one of the more common theories I've read about their domestication:

Animals have a certain 'personal space' where predators or other threats can be tolerated, because they need to eat. Like zebras, who walk around eating only a couple of meters away from a pack of lions. If the animal is too flighty, it starves. If it's too foolhardy, it'll get eaten. Starvation is generally a bigger issue with pack animals.

Different wolves in a pack would have different personal spaces where they would tolerate humans while they scavenged for food. The more foolhardy ones would survive more often because they would get more food, and early man had better things to do than chase off every scavenger at their camp (and they could escape most of the time anyway). Over a long period of time, these wolves would get used to the presence of humans, and follow them while they were hunting, possibly even assisting them by harrying the animal or distracting it. At some point early man went "These animals could be trained to my benefit!" (and they could), and we end up with what amounts to the precursor of modern dogs. And then we get into selective breeding, which is much more interesting but I'm getting bored and drifting off-topic.

While I'm at it, one of the big reasons Europe was dominant until recent times was its rich soil, especially in the Fertile Crescent. This, combined with a huge amount of viable crops, its wide variety of domestic animals, and the fact that it has a large area of viable land (not having to sail to find new places makes it much easier to advance a civilisation), let them advance the way they did.

Diamond actually points out that Europe only had access to metalworking, philosophy, and almost everything beyond basic survival pretty much solely because of the horse. No other animal is anywhere near as good at work as a horse.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 07:58:05 am by ungulateman »
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2634 on: December 16, 2010, 07:56:39 am »

An interesting theory, but it's far more likely to apply to cats. Canine subservience suggests that early man set out to break them, and this has been bred into them. Felines are notably far less subservient than dogs, which suggests that they were tamed accidentally. (Rodents gather around human food stockpiles, the smaller kinds of cats move in to take advantage, man is happy that the cats are killing the rodents stealing his stored plants, so they tolerate one another.) This is probably what led man to start stealing wolf cubs to train.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2635 on: December 16, 2010, 09:38:31 am »

Felines are notably far less subservient than dogs, which suggests that they were tamed accidentally. (Rodents gather around human food stockpiles, the smaller kinds of cats move in to take advantage, man is happy that the cats are killing the rodents stealing his stored plants, so they tolerate one another.)

As for cats, you can really wonder who tamed who.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2636 on: December 16, 2010, 10:07:52 am »

Horses need special collars to be harnessed for work. 'Course, other animals are pretty good at being harnessed.
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Chthonic

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2637 on: December 16, 2010, 10:45:53 am »

As for cats, you can really wonder who tamed who.

One wonders, until one contemplates which member of the partnership is often a.) dressed up in silly costumes, b.) relieved of his or her burdensome gonads, or (if supernumerary) c.) euthanized and packed into barrels pending incineration.
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2638 on: December 16, 2010, 10:49:41 am »

As for cats, you can really wonder who tamed who.

One wonders, until one contemplates which member of the partnership is often a.) dressed up in silly costumes, b.) relieved of his or her burdensome gonads, or (if supernumerary) c.) euthanized and packed into barrels pending incineration.

I wish I could implement  the first two options on my fortresses...
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2639 on: December 16, 2010, 10:52:35 am »

horse were used only at a later stage as work animals, as the old version of collar won't allow them to use their full efficiency.

bulls had a strong neck and were better suited for using the simpler throat collar, while horses were limited to the breast collar having side attachment for pulling, which prevented the harness of the horse full strength.

it was only around the 10th century that the modern collar became widespread in europe.
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