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[Aqizzar]

Doublepost:
Quote from: Aqizzar on July 01, 2010, 06:38:42 pm
but after getting slapped with a six figure bill you'll probably be paying for it the rest of your life.

A life you wouldn't have had without the service. And six figures? Uninsured childbirth came up to a whopping three grand. My daughter, with all of her complications, cost a little more than my '97 Blazer, but I'd say that's a fair price for a child who would have died and possibly a dead wife as well.

The six figures was referring to the rough average of healthcare costs of a serious car crash, or really any major accident.  I know you could respond with, "Well, then you can sue the person at fault."  If you're any kind of honest about the real world, I'll trust you not to make such a whimsically myopic statement.  I have a little more faith in you than that.

But the real point I want to throw in is, saying "any cost is better than dead, so take your giant bill and be happy about it" is a really crappy argument.  Just because I don't live in the Kalahari doesn't mean I'm not entitled to complain about the heat where I am.

[Leafsnail]

A life you wouldn't have had without the service. And six figures? Uninsured childbirth came up to a whopping three grand. My daughter, with all of her complications, cost a little more than my '97 Blazer, but I'd say that's a fair price for a child who would have died and possibly a dead wife as well.

While I'd certainly pay any figure to save a family member's life, others wouldn't be able to afford that.  And it's not like their child deserves to suffer because of it...

I'd suggest that "Any price is better than being dead" is the very reason why a capitalist system for healthcare just doesn't work.  You can't just go without a life saving operation, so doctors can and do charge whatever the hell they like.  Same for insurance if you don't want that to happen to you.

So... I'd say most things can work under a capitalist system, but some things just don't work at all under it.

[Muz]

Other important things like energy too. Enron used to deliberately cause power shortages to raise prices, then supply energy at the higher prices.

[Jimmy]

Take it from someone who works in healthcare. Everyone expects that they should have access to the best healthcare available regardless of their financial status. This is part of our moral makeup. However healthcare costs money, lots of it. A doctor is paid for performing a job that takes years of training and a highly intelligent mind. In return for his (or her) investment, he expects to be financially compensated. Add to that the branching and specialization that is the core of our health care system, the allied health professionals involved in delivering this care, the facilities and equipment required, the investment into research and study to improve current care, administration and so forth, and health care is an 800 pound gorilla financially.

Who pays for it all? It's not fair to expect the full burden to be shared completely by the total population. Some people are more sick than others, so you shouldn't have to pay for something you don't use. Insurance covers some of the burden, and this is a private sector with extremely good return on investment. Government and welfare groups cover other parts to take up the slack.

The ultimate judgement is that you make yourself. Health care costs money because people use it. If they didn't use it, there wouldn't be money to be made and your doctors would find other jobs or be forced to lower their costs. You have every right to refuse medical treatment in order to save money, and if enough people do it the price will go down.

Do you really think that'll happen?

Good. That's why I can charge you so much.

[Leafsnail]

Who pays for it all? It's not fair to expect the full burden to be shared completely by the total population. Some people are more sick than others, so you shouldn't have to pay for something you don't use. Insurance covers some of the burden, and this is a private sector with extremely good return on investment. Government and welfare groups cover other parts to take up the slack.

It is.  And what's more, less money is wasted that way (see: comparative costs of British and American healthcare as a portion of GDP).

And no matter how healthy you are now, there's no guarantee you'll always be.  Even if you're the healthiest man in the world, you aren't gonna get up from a car accident without help.  State funded healthcare is fair since it gives everyone peace of mind that they won't be fucked over by their insurance company when they actually need something.  In addition to the fact that it's just... cheaper overall.

[Jimmy]

The sharing of the cost of healthcare is decided by laws made by a democratic society. In democracy the rules are made by who gets voted into power, and that's the one that the majority of the population support. If the majority of the population support everyone having to pay for everyone's healthcare it will happen because they'll elect the person who does that. But guess what? You might think it's fair, but not everyone does.

Would you be willing to sacrifice an extra 20% of your wage to tax for a service you aren't likely to need if you're young and healthy? Or one that you could just as easily pay for yourself with insurance or full payment?

Edit: Actually, I pulled 20% out of my ass, so that's not fair. I'll get some real numbers.

Number of Americans of working age: 200,000,000 ish (link)
Unemployed percentage: 10% ish (link)
Cost of healthcare in USA: $2,300,000,000,000 ish (link)

Cost per taxpayer: $12,700. Kludge figure, but if your average person earns $60K per year that's 20%.

[Aqizzar]

Who pays for it all? It's not fair to expect the full burden to be shared completely by the total population. Some people are more sick than others, so you shouldn't have to pay for something you don't use. Insurance covers some of the burden, and this is a private sector with extremely good return on investment. Government and welfare groups cover other parts to take up the slack.

You pay for roads you'll never drive on, welfare for people you'll never meet, engineering in states you'll never go to, armies for wars they'll never fight, and endowments for students of disciplines you think are ridiculous.  The "I'm mad that some people are getting my money who contribute as much as they use" argument was lost a long long time ago.  I would go so far as to say that giving up on that argument and thinking that it's at all important or relevant that need and cost are not equal is the founding principle of having a government that does anything at all.

[Muz]

Would you be willing to sacrifice an extra 20% of your wage to tax for a service you aren't likely to need if you're young and healthy? Or one that you could just as easily pay for yourself with insurance or full payment?

Yes, I would, if it'd save a life. I'd even give it to illegal immigrants taking my job. I get enough money to live happily, what's wrong with giving it to someone who doesn't have enough money to live? On the other hand, insurance probably takes more money than taxed healthcare. Insurance is just a business making money by being the middle man and prices are much higher than the cost. A perfect argument against capitalism.

[Jimmy]

Hey, it's great that so many people are willing to make that sacrifice. If you're from a lower income bracket it's especially enticing because it means you average out winning in the long run. The true average income in the USA is 45K, meaning most would pay less than they would consume. The remaining portion would come from the wealthy, whose tax percentage would be higher than their true need. A multi-millionaire's tax would be paying for dozens of people's healthcare needs.

So guess which system you want to support if you're in the high income bracket? The one that benefits you personally would likely be the answer. Thus most wealthy support privately funded health care insurance.

Average cost of health care insurance?
$4,700 ish (link)

The laws about healthcare represent public opinion. Vote for what you believe is best. If nobody's saying they'll do what you want to happen, there's even the opportunity for you to be the person people are voting for. I'd like to see that politician who stands up and promises that 20% of everyone's income will be taken in tax to provide universal health care.

[ed boy]

Yes, I would, if it'd save a life. I'd even give it to illegal immigrants taking my job. I get enough money to live happily, what's wrong with giving it to someone who doesn't have enough money to live?

This is not an attitude shared by most people. People are, on the whole, selfish. Although many will claim to be more than happy to give up posessions to help others, most are not telling the truth. It is natural human behavious to try and raise one's standard of living as high as possible, and this is (mostly) incompatible with giving away money.

Insurance is just a business making money by being the middle man and prices are much higher than the cost. A perfect argument against capitalism.

Insurance is a business that makes money by removing risk. People tend to misjudge risk, and are very concerned about the worst-case scenario. If I insure my house, chancs are I will lose money overall. However, I will gain the peace of mind of knowing that if my house burns down, I will at least have something.

[Aqizzar]

The laws about healthcare represent public opinion. Vote for what you believe is best. If nobody's saying they'll do what you want to happen, there's even the opportunity for you to be the person people are voting for. I'd like to see that politician who stands up and promises that 20% of everyone's income will be taken in tax to provide universal health care.

You're forgetting the other incredibly important facet of democratic politics - people are fucking idiots who can be talked into and out of anything, certainly including demanding and opposing laws against their self-interest.  This was the same debate that turned providing public insurance coverage of will-writing and end-of-life attorney counseling into NAZI DETH PANEL CAMPS COMING FOR YOUR GRANDMA.  What the "average" person "wants" is virtually meaningless, because most people even if well-meaning have no idea what they're talking about.

[Jimmy]

Isn't it such a shame that the majority of people are ignorant, uninformed or just uninterested enough to fail to realize they're being hoodwinked? It's almost like there weren't free public libraries, countless educational websites, social activism groups and political reform movements!

Ever read George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four? Classed society is the one social rule that's survived every form of government invented. The lower class will always be lower class. The middle class will seek change to better themselves, and the upper class will seek to maintain the status quo. No amount of free education, religious reform, political control or social unrest will change this. It's one of the wonderful things in politics, so if you're so inclined and have the mind for it you can really work the system to your benefit. Just don't expect to change the world, because it's impossible.

[Phmcw]

Actually, in Belgium and in France, the leftish party is usually called socialist.

Isn't it such a shame that the majority of people are ignorant, uninformed or just uninterested enough to fail to realize they're being hoodwinked?

And we get it, that's why their is so much strikes in France , and why socialist are so strong in Belgium.

I may add the problem here is that we're being grudged by the socialist themselves, but that's another story.

[Leafsnail]

Number of Americans of working age: 200,000,000 ish (link)
Unemployed percentage: 10% ish (link)
Cost of healthcare in USA: $2,300,000,000,000 ish (link)

Cost per taxpayer: $12,700. Kludge figure, but if your average person earns $60K per year that's 20%.

Funnily enough, Britain's healthcare costs half as much (as a percent of GDP) and gets better results overall.

[Jimmy]

But you should consider that Britain doesn't have nearly as much invested into R&D as the USA. Drug development alone is a huge influence on expenditure. Much of the inventing work is done in the USA, which foots the bill and recoups its losses by selling it at a higher markup. Britain just leeches off the research done.