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Author Topic: Mounts and pet armour  (Read 18595 times)

Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2007, 10:11:00 pm »

Fear mechanics could be cool, probably difficult though.

Look, as I've said, I think it is silly to equip common animals with armor. Despite examples that can be found for arguments sake, this was largely not done- not only historically, but even in fantasy.

Also I've said that my problem is with common animals, cats, dogs, etc. I can see it more for an exotic pet. Such as the example of an armoured elephant. On top of which, if Toady decides to give you kitty armor, I'd think it's stupid but I won't really care. Personally I just don't think it's worth the time; however much or little.

Lastly, for the example of boar hunting dogs being given leather armor:

a) I did not know that.

b) I can't imagine it being too effective vs. boar tusk.

c) I'd have a lot less of a problem with some kind of padded or leather jerkin than the idea of cats and dogs in chain or plate that was originally suggested.

Note: I'm not trying to "thread crap" or troll. Envisioning plate armored war dogs may ruin my immersion, but I don't have to use them. I initially posted here because the idea has potential if done with taste. Of course taste is subjective but then again I'm only posting a subjective opinion. (That's a lie, I know all...but I'll pander to you for reasons I shan't reveal  :p)

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JT

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2007, 10:42:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:
<STRONG>P.S.- If I wrap a parakeet in tinfoil, perhaps I could make the case that captured birds should be armored for when they do battle with yet-to-be-implemented wasp vermin?</STRONG>

At the very least, you would now have a weapon capable of dealing with the impending Martian invasion.

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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2007, 12:53:00 am »

Well with the example of a boar tusk, no matter how you look at it leather armour is infinitly better than just bare skin, or hide. Most armour is not meant to withstand the force of a hit. This is because the force would simply travel through the armour into you and break something.

Instead most armours aim to deflect. A broadhead arrow that grazes by a patch of bare skin will leave a pretty bad gash, if you had leather over that area, it would get cut up a bit, but your skin is saved and you would not bleed.

Anyhow what if we went with the idea of multiple breeds.

You have your average dog. Good as a companion and can deal some suprising damage in a fight. Pretty much the dog we have now. You can train the dog for hunting or for war. They breed pretty quickly so they are more or less expendable.

Later on in the game, you might import some dwarven war canines or tame some similar wild animals. Instead of being like your average dog these are more akin to giant wolves. More than big enough for a dwarf to ride on. Because they are large, strong and slightly more feral you have to take FAR more care in raising and training each dog. Again, the big investment.

Once the dog is ready for war, you would want to protect that investment. This means adding some heavy armour, ESPECIALLY if you intend to use them as a mount. There is nothing strange about dwarven canine cavalry.

Full dog armour would not be an everyday thing. It would be fully customized and time consuming to make but we hardly lack for materials. Partial dog armour would be more common and is simpler to make.

So the different levels:
Large War Dog mount: Full plate, this is as much for the rider as the mount. Cavalry gets shot at, a lot, plus they need the heavy armour when they crash through enemy ranks and recieve many hits as they go by.

Large War Dog zerger: For these you would use a plate helmet and chainmail "blanket". The helmet protects the dogs head and eyes. A blind dog will not do much fighting, and the head and mouth are the most likely to be injured. The blanket hangs over the dog and protects it from missiles. Since these dogs are quite strong they can bear the weight easily.

Plain War Dog: Metal helmet and leather armour. These form the bulk of your "rampaging mob" of dogs. They are not as valuable as the specialized breed but you still want them to get to the enemy and do some damage. Enemies tend to shoot at the most intimidating target and a flood of war dogs certainly fits the bill.

You would defenitly want to put a metal helmet on the dog for the same reason as the large war dog. But chainmail would tire the dogs out too quickly and slow them down, they are not as strong and fast as the bigger breed. Leather armour would server to protect them from glancing missile hits.

Hunting dogs are built entirely for speed. The only armour that would be practical is leather and even then a full doggy suit would limit movement. A helmet and a "vest" would be more than enough.

A skilled leatherworker can form the material to pretty much any shape, armour fit for dogs would be even more simple than armour meant for humanoids. A proper dog saddle would take a lot of effort though.

Chainmail is a bit harder to work with but there are no complex joints to worry about, just a rectangular blanket that sits on the dog like a cloak and a couple straps to make sure it does not fall off.

When you get into the area of plate armour, the cost skyrockets. A full suit covering the head, neck and body (not the legs) would have to be made in seperate parts, all tailored to articulate properly when put on the dog.

On the other hand a plate helmet for a dog is nothing special, just a piece of sheet metal curved to fit the dogs head with eyeholes. These could be made for any dog in the fortress without much trouble.

So that pretty much covers all levels of sense.
Plate armour + pet dog = no
Plate armour + gigantic dog mount = YES!  :(
Dogs + incoming bolts + simple armour = good chance of angry live dogs  :D

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Metalax

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2007, 01:43:00 am »

That sounds good. Of course it should still be possible to create full suits of armor for any pet, so that your pampered nobles can demand a set for their favourite pet.
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Jaqie Fox

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 03:15:00 am »

Uhm... war dogs would, in my opinion, be more like an irish wolfhound then a husky type.

 

And yes, they do get that big. I used to know a family with one.  I'm tall (6'1") and the dog's back comes to eye level when it is standing on all fours.

[ June 02, 2007: Message edited by: Jaqie Fox ]

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Asehujiko

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2007, 10:19:00 am »

Where did the idea of dog riding dwarves came from? Everytime they are mentioned they use their feet or a ram.
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Draco18s

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2007, 11:51:00 am »

D&D Player's Handbook?
They have "riding dogs" in there for the small races, such as dwarves.
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False Keraptis

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2007, 07:01:00 pm »

True, the PHB has riding dogs for small characters, but D&D dwarves are medium.   (sorry, please go back to your regularly scheduled topic.)
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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2007, 01:01:00 am »

Well dog mounts make as much sense as horse mounts. Ive head everything from halflings riding dinosaurs in Ebberon to elves riding unicorns from Forgotten Realms. I also have a picture on this comp somewhere that shows ithilid beholder cavalry, that was head asploding awesome.

Any animal can be a mount really. There are important points you have to deal with in this order:
1. Is it big enough to ride. No dwarven pig cavalry, but giant boar cavalry would work.
2. Is it strong enough to bear the weight of a rider plus his equipment and possibly equipment of his own, barding ect. Prefferably all of the above.
3. Can you ride it without falling off after a sharp turn? This can usually be solved with a saddle of some sort.
4. Can the animal maintain a good amount of speed, taking into account everything above.
5. Is it trainable. THis is the big question, can you train the mount to respond to your commands during the chaos of battle. Getting the animal to wear the armour alone is a long job.

If the animal meets those requirements then you are good to go, horses are a great example. However some slack can be gived to animals with unique talents, or simply great strength. Plus not all mounts are needed for pure speed.

War elephants were not common and rather fickle, but when they did work they were devastating. A charging elephant can still cover ground and not much will stop it. Armoured war elephants are almost mythical but no one can argue that they would not be effective.

Bear cavalry seems like a bad idea at first, but lets just assume that dwarven animal handlers are skilled enough to train any animal. A bear is not built for speed although most types can charge at an astonishing speed. A bear is already terrifying in melee, and armoured elder grizzly bear could probably rival an elephant.

We have to take into account where the mount will be used. On flat open fields the horse is king. On more rough terrain you would have to rely on slower but more sure-footed beasts.

Dwarven cavalry would operate much like that of other races outside the fortress. You have your typical "shock troops" your skirmishers/scouts and possibly mobile missile troops. These all require mounts of a different type, or at least, different training.

However since dwarves spend so much time underground you would need mounts suited to tunnel combat.

In a small tunnel the focus is less on speed. Dexterity is key, but high speed is not practical in narrow winding tunnels, especially if you need to turn a lot of corners. If you come face to face with an enemy in a tunnel barely twice as wide as you, neither of you is going to miss much because dodging is nearly impossible.

Instead what you want is a mount that is compact or short. Horses would be terrible underground. But other animals such as bears, large dogs and wolves, and boars would fit the bill perfectly.

Because of the increased danger, these mounts and the riders would need the heaviest armour you could possibly give them. There is nowhere to run in a corridor and missile weapons rarely miss in such a confined setting.

The focus is on smashing your opponent into a pulp as fast as you cant, not outmenuvering him for a decisive killing blow as you would in other terrain. To that end the mount serves a dual purpose, carrying you to battle but also helping you fight.

Armoured grizzly bear tunnel cavalry would be one of the coolest things ever  :D

And since living in a cave is dangerous as it is and can only get more so, such shock troops would be well worth the cost.

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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 11:55:00 pm »

Speaking of bear armour  :D I imagine doggie plate armour would look similar.
 

[ June 04, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

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Draco18s

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2007, 02:17:00 pm »

Oh god yes, that pic only tells me enough to know that WOOT!  That fight will be in the movie.  Oh gods that was an awesome scene.
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Eagleon

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2007, 03:20:00 am »

Dwarves would have incentive to breed larger, sturdier dogs if they're closer to being able to ride them than us. We'd certainly never attempt it, unless you count sled teams and such, but...

I'm in favor of being able to make armor for anything over a certain size (strength?), with an eye towards modded-in crap. Also, I think it'd be incredibly awesome if one day a centaur hero came to my fortress and commissioned some barding.  :D

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2007, 08:47:00 am »

It would be very profitable to make armor for rare megabeasts. I never accuired one myself, but you wouldn't send a dragon into battle unarmored (then again, dragons aready have scale armor)
Imagine an army of 6 admantium clad dragons charging your enemies...........
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Tormy

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2007, 09:15:00 am »

I like the idea of mounts and pet armor. These should be in the game someday.    :)
In fact -since we can mod many stiff already-, there should be "pet weapons" also later on for the war trained creatures. Just think about the LotR war trolls. When we mod in a creature what should be able to carry a weapon, why shouldnt we able to equip them with the weapons what we want?

[ July 16, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2007, 06:50:00 pm »

According to Toady this is completetly possible. He just has to put in files that tell the game what the items are, and a RAW so that they can be edited.
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