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[Tommy2U]

I've seen pictures of this fishing cat on the web before, that beast is awesome  
Cats either stalk up to their prey and leap from ambush or stalk up and chase it. Armour of any kind would impede them seriously. Similar factors apply to hunting dogs.
As to war dogs, well...
Armoured horses were rarer than movies, fantasy books or RPGs would suggest. In real life armour for animals was expensive to make, limited their mobility and caused them to overheat. Armoured elephants were exceedingly rare and mostly for show.
Dogs come in many sizes and shapes, armour would have to be tailored for every individual animal. Additionally, someone would have to put the armour on the animals before the battle as I can't see them running around in armour all the time.
Armour, especially chainmail would tend to snag on things and I don't think dogs would be smart enough to readjust it by themselves.
We could probably ignore the above and go for merry D&D style syncretism and ahistoricism, though I see Dwarf Fortress as a game different in style to D&D.
Anyways, at the moment war dogs are dime a dozen. Dogs breed rapidly, require no food and virtually no care. Training war dogs is ridiculously easy. What I'd like to see more than animal armour is dog collars, perhaps leashes as items to be produced and used in dog handling/training.

[Keilden]

I think we can skip the real facts in this game IRL you don't stop bleeding becuse you leave the local area

[Tamren]

As soon as anyone mentioned the word "dwarf" realism flies out the window on wings of cave spider silk

That said, we want a game that is fun but ALSO makes sense. If you want nonsense then that is what mods are for   so why the hell not?

[Keilden]

Side note. Cats don't like to be dressed up. My cat just stopped moving and fall down like he was dead when I put on a small hat on him.

[Tamren]

True, but not all cats are patient enough for dressing and animal trainers can do some crazy things.

Ive seen a cat eat with a fork, granted it was because of a crazy cat lady, but the cat still did it, chopsticks even. (youtube)

My cat HATES the collar i gave her, one time i had to take it off for cleaning and she just would not not quit fussing around.

Eventually i got it on her, what i did was hang the collar by the door, if she wanted out i tried to put the collar on, if i couldnt she would not get to go outside.

Took about a week but she finally got the hint, now i have no problem putting it on her.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

I'd agree for large animal armor, horse =< . For dogs and cats, perhaps a collar but plate or even chain on a normal domestic animal is a bit much. Along with collars for animals, maybe girdles for humanoids. (Girdles, right? The part that protects the neck on platemail.)

I would like to see varied and prolonged training time, and animal attribute values. (Which might be hidden unless _____ circumstance\variable.)

As for the investment of pets, thinking: It could be my dwarf that took that arrow, makes it more than pay off.

Side note: I've a fortress that has about 60 war dogs, they do more than my fortress guard. Almost as much as my military. I kind of feel they came to easy. I would like to see animals have a bit more variation, and highly trained animals should be harder to acquire.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:
[QB]I'd agree for large animal armor, horse =< . For dogs and cats, perhaps a collar but plate or even chain on a normal domestic animal is a bit much. Along with collars for animals, maybe girdles for humanoids. (Girdles, right? The part that protects the neck on platemail.)

As for the investment of pets, thinking: It could be my dwarf that took that arrow, makes it more than pay off.QB]

Pretty sure the girdle is not worn on the neck  . What you are probably thinkin of is the Gorget, or Aventail if you go with the chainmail version.

Once animal rearing becomes more detailed we will no doubt start having to deal with breeds.

A war dog is different from a hunting dog who is not the same as your average pet dog. Same goes for rat hunting cats compared to a walking pillow.

So that means we would have to invest more time and effort. A considerable investment goes into rearing and training each animal.

Now we have to focus on protecting that investment, thus the inclusion of armour which would not be needed for your average animals, the ones kept solely as pets.

That war dog took an arrow that was meant for you. Completetly validates the effort spent right? So why not spend a little more effort and make sure the dog survives the arrow?

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Gorget, correct. I couldn't think of the word. As for putting armor on the animal:

1)It probably won't survive anyways.

2) It would be much harder, I believe, to make armor for a small creature without impeding it's dexterity greatly.

3) The armor would be worth more than the animal. Warhorses were armored more for the riders benefit than the horses. He'd be dead if he fell in plate, he wouldn't be able to get up. For large, extremely expensive, exotic animals, maybe. But except for Jaqie Fox's Giant Toad killin' Kitten, no cat needs armor to kill rats.

4) It IS silly. The pictures you gave as examples are modern day novelty items for people who obsess about their pets. As for the example of a police dog wearing kevlar, it's not a "war dog". They sniff for drugs, tackle fleeing offenders, and whatnot they aren't meant for heavy combat.(Neither are the police for that matter.)Point being they have armor that:

a) is light. No contoured sheet of metal, doggie helmets and what-not.

b) is there because they are not meant to fight an attacker. They are not expendable, and not meant to sustain injuries, war animals are generally expected to so you don't have to. The horse being protected is to protect the rider, the animal is not a war animal the way a dog would be.

All that said, I'd support armor for appropriately exotic creatures, and for mounts. With the exotic creatures though, it should be very difficult to acquire and maintain. I remember seeing something about pet squabbles in the bloats saying disputes can be made when one pet eats another, that'll bring a whole new dimension to owning large aggresive creatures.

"Yer dragon ate me mule! And me wife and kid!!!"

(It'll also make you think twice about putting armor on them for when a dwarf attacks a pet that ate it's pet.)

[Tubal_Cain]

"During the seventeenth century, people would also go hunting for sport. It was a common activity for people to do. They would wear armor and ride out into the woods with their dogs. The hunters would not wear a full set of armor necessarily but the typical armor of a cavalryman. The nature of the hunting dog to chase after the prey put the dog in danger of being shot by the hunters. To prevent the dog from being shot, it would wear a very crude armor. The armor would consist of mail and very little plate armor. A brightly colored feather was sometimes attached to the dogs chanfron type of armor so that the hunters could still see them while on the hunt."

from: http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/17cIQP/armor.html

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Once again, prone to accidental injury. It isn't to protect the dog from the beast, but the hunter. Also it is substantially later than other game technology.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible or totally unheard of. But I don't think it's something that needs to be in the "official" game. By that I mean perhaps modders could address it, but I don't think it worthy of Toady's limited attention.

P.S.- If I wrap a parakeet in tinfoil, perhaps I could make the case that captured birds should be armored for when they do battle with yet-to-be-implemented wasp vermin?

[Fieari]

Right.  Not to protect it from teeth and claws, but from arrows.

Exactly what we want to protect our war dogs from.

This makes sense to me.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

Yep. It makes sense if you consider the animal as a pet rather than a utility. Personal hunting dogs being given armor so their owner won't accidentally shoot them is way different (and still rare practice as far as I can tell,)  than a dog whose purpose is to fight. Look at dog use in (relatively) modern warfare. Medic dogs might've had some light protection. Soviet mine dogs, not that the Soviet example need be followed, were meant to detonate tanks along with themselves.

Moral being: animals of very high (often personal) worth have been armored on rare occasion, mounts have been armored but generally more for a riders benefit. Most animals actually participating in combat are expected to get injured and that's that.

Once again, this is all my opinion. If Toady decides to do something of the sort that's fine with me, I don't have to use it if it winds up really bothering me.

The thing is I can see putting some form of armor on the kings tamed giant cheetah, but not on Likud the peasants cave-spider hunting cat. If the cat gets bit in the face by a spider, well sorry Likud.

And for the record, nobody sends their beloved pet, the kind they might take the time to armor, off to fight goblin hordes and fire imps.

[hactar1]

Historically, armor for fighting dogs was probably fairly common... According to wikipedia, boar-hunting dogs wore armor to protect them from being tusked:

"Specialised boar swords were also used in boar hunting, and also large hunting dogs, which would usually be equipped with heavy leather armour."

There's no citation, but it's not hard to imagine it being true.  Even if they were not worried about the dog's well-being (which they would have been; good fighting dogs were a valuable item), armor would increase a dog's effectiveness. The dog's method of attack involves latching on and dragging the victim to the ground, which is stopped if the dog takes damage and lets go.

I'd love to be able to upgrade war dogs in DF with extra armor.  It'd make the leather works much more valuable after all the quivers and backpacks that are likely to be useful have been made.

[Draco18s]

I have to amuse myself a bit here...

"This is a war dog.  It is wearing dog-leather armor"

[Tamren]

Hey! that gives me a great idea.

Remember that thread on taxidermy i made? Well you know how people take the entire pelt of an animal and turn the thing into a rug with the head intact?

What if one of your trap happens to kill a wolf, make its head into a helmet and put it on your dog!   This would be especially effective if fear mechanics would be implemented.

Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:
"Once again, prone to accidental injury. It isn't to protect the dog from the beast, but the hunter."

Well, as it is now we do not have to worry about friendly fire, but if you read the dev page some things make it clear that you will have to work to prevent such things in the future.

"P.S.- If I wrap a parakeet in tinfoil, perhaps I could make the case that captured birds should be armored for when they do battle with yet-to-be-implemented wasp vermin?"

The closest thing i have ever heard to armoured birds is this white water rafting place that uses carrier pidgeons to take film from photographers on the rapids to home base faster than the boat so that you have your pictures ready even before you get back.

The pidgeon wears this little cloth harness and the film canister goes on it back. The problem with armouring birds is that they can carry very little weight UNLESS it is something that they can carry in thier claws. I mean you could bedeck an eagle in chainmail but that would hinder his flight movement too much.

GIANT eagles and also gryphons on the other hand would make sense.

Originally posted by Funkadelic Jive Turkey:
"The thing is I can see putting some form of armor on the kings tamed giant cheetah, but not on Likud the peasants cave-spider hunting cat. If the cat gets bit in the face by a spider, well sorry Likud."

"And for the record, nobody sends their beloved pet, the kind they might take the time to armor, off to fight goblin hordes and fire imps."

All true. But then think for a moment. A leather helmet made to fit the cat could have prevented that.

We do not armour pets, but then we do not expect the pet to fight, even though a loyal pet will defend you.

The thing is, pet or not, a war dog or a cat expected to hunt spiders is given a job. That job entails significant danger and we would be idiots not to prepare them for that danger. It is irrelevant if historically such things required too much time or materials.

Leatherworkers in my fortress simply do not have enough to do! Apart from making a few items here and there, most of the work is done by my tailors because cave spider silks is MUCH easier to aquire than most types of leather.

Metal armour might have been expensive in the middle ages, and heck still is. But this is dwarf fortress, I once excavated a Sphalerite vein that was took up more than 2/3 of my screen.

We have the materials, we have the time and we have the skills. There is a need, why not fill it?

[ May 31, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]