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Author Topic: Mounts and pet armour  (Read 18582 times)

Tamren

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Mounts and pet armour
« on: May 27, 2007, 01:08:00 am »

Was just thinking. With overland armies in the works we would probably end up with mounted combat in some form.

Mounts are actually quite vulnerable for various reasons:
1. They are a much larger target than you are and catch more flak.
2. They are rarely armoured due to cost and especially weight.
3. Animals disciplined enough to carry riders tend to forget how to dodge or are trained to ignore such reflexes. This is good for you if you want to charge someone holding a point stick, not so good for the horse.

In historical times horses often wore platemail, horse armour in general is referred to as barding. Leather and chain armour for horses would also be quite effective.

Combined with a well armoured rider, armoured cavalry formed effective shock troops, often termed as "cataphracts" or heavy cavalry.

Would this be feasible for dwarf fortress? Horses and other livestock lack attributes and variants.

Also, war dogs were relatively common. Police dogs nowadays apparantly have custom kevlar vests. Im not sure if they were armoured much but it certainly does make sense.

Leather, chain and plate armour would not much of a burden for a strong dog and would make war dogs far more effective if a bit less speedy.

This could apply to other animals. Armoured war elephants would be so cool!

I also happened to find these pictures  :D

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Bricktop

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2007, 06:49:00 am »

Sounds cool.

One thing though... armoured war elephants?!?!? That'd make magma flood defences look weak...  :p

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TakiJap

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2007, 07:27:00 am »

I've lately been wondering what kind of graphics should mounted creatures have?

- Should rider's and mount's symbols flicker like two creatures on top eachother do? Problem is that it could confused with a creature standing on top of another creature lying on ground. Also large mounted army could look quite disturbing.

- Should two symbols form into a rider symbol? Problem is that i.e. human peasant and spearman even with different mounts, couldn't be told apart, which is kind a wierd.

- Should the rider's symbol have, let's say, blue backround to indicate that he's riding a mount? Problem is, as in the last one, that the you couldn't tell what kind of a mount is he riding and if the rider had a blue symbol it couldn't be seen from the backround.

I have to say that I'm out of ideas and eager to see what kind of a solution will Toady come up with.

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Draco18s

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2007, 11:04:00 am »

Is that first picture cat plate/chain mail?
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Fleeb

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2007, 11:46:00 am »

Yup, his site has cat and mouse armor. All fully functional.
http://jeffdeboer.com/Galleries/CatsandMice/tabid/77/Default.aspx
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JT

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 06:07:00 pm »

Fully functional in the sense that it's made of metal and goes over top of a cat, at least.  Not functional at all in the sense that a cat will attempt to extract revenge if you ever put it on him, and probably not very useful against projectiles (and you'd have PETA or the SPCA on your ass if you ever tried it... hell, you'd probably have PETA on your ass if you put it on the cat in the first place). =P
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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2007, 07:30:00 pm »

heh bad idea all around. It is a fine piece of work though you must admit.

Instead of having an angry cat plotting to kill you in your sleep, you will have an ARMOURED angry cat plotting to kill you in your sleep.

Still.... i know dwarves would never bring war cats into battle, but some vermin can be quite dangerous. Poison fangs and sharp stuff will give your kitty a bad day. Platemail is probably overdoing it, unless we give pets skills, imagine a legendary anklebiter.

That said, there are a lot of animals in the total bestiary that are fit for combat. Unicorns come to mind. Bears and big cats especially.

Elephants are the easiest to manage which is why they were used most often for combat, and other jobs besides. But imagine trained and ARMOURED war grizzlies.

as mounts!

Epic  :D

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Gaulgath

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 09:18:00 pm »

The thought of spear-armed dwarves riding armored elephants is oddly appealing to me. But armoring dogs and cats is way overdoing it.
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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2007, 11:58:00 pm »

Oh i dunno, i wouldnt discount it completetly.

Dogs at the moment are certainly considered expendable. Training a dog seems to take like... 10 seconds, even with a rank novice trainer and POOF you have a war dog! instant double damage!.

Well in reality a properly trained war dog first needs a strong dog. This takes the right breeding and a lot of food. Then you have to train the dog, probably from adeolescence on.

It makes sense that you would want the dog to be as effective as possible, that includes defense as well as offence. An optimal trained war dog represents a HUGE investment, something you would not want to lose to one lucky hit.

The same thing applies to hunting dogs, only the training is even more intensive, instead of just attacking you also want the dog to distract the animal your are hunting. And before you even begin, you need the dog to FIND animal in the first place, a war dog could not do this.

So, large investment. Added to the monetary value, a pet that you live with for a long time pretty much becomes a member of the family.

All these factors make it pretty clear you would not want to lose dog.

That brings up the good question, what do we armour the dog WITH? Assuming we have the same options as we have for dwarves:

Leather is a good option, hardened and perhaps studded leather is more than enough to ward off the blows you would expect to recieve from wild animals, effectively giving the animal a second, tougher skin. Dogs fit for fighting are quite strong and would barely notice the weight of leather.

Chainmail is the next option, very tough and can be formed around any shape. Chainmail is weaker against crushing and piercing then it is against slashing damage, but overall it is much better than leather.

Plate armour is probably overkill. But again considering the investment and the danger the dog will face plate armour is really not overdoing it. There are a few problems however. Even the strongest dog will be slowed considerably by the weight and would not be suitable for long pursuits. In tight tunnel combat the heavy protection the armour affords is put to good use.

Even if a "full suit" would be rather much, head, neck and chest protection would be enough to protect the animal from most threats. But if the animals start coming under missile fire then all-around protection is warranted.

All of this applies to other animals suitable for combat. Eleplants, bear, great cats. Crocodiles maybe? Armoured dragons and hydrae would be night unstoppable.

Coming back to cats. I agree that cat armour sounds rather ridiculous. But the largest of tomcats get rather huge and rival most dogs in terms of strength. The problem is the more you domesticate the cat the more huggable they become and the less predatory they are.

Cats can still be trained, circus cats are a good example. In Dwarf Fortress cats act as antivermin exterminators but also attack other creatures fearlessly.

So lets say, you took one of those large cats and trained them to attack vermin. The variety of creatures in DF is hardly limited to bugs and mice. Because of the danger involved cat armour really doesnt look like such a bad idea.

All-around armour would not work, but a cat would need protection for many critical areas.

The foremost of these is the head, but the head protection must be sparing as it cannot limit the cats periferal vision  and must allow the ears to swivel.

The chest and upper body would need some cladding because these are the areas where the cat would most likely take a hit.

The spine of the cat could do with some protection, but said protection must be highly flexible or it will interfere with the cats movement.

The tail of cat might not strike you as a critical area, but it is worth protecting simply because it is a big and vulnerable target.

Plate armour would be waaaay overdoing it. For one thing the cat relies on its agility, plate armour articulated enough not to limit movement is scale mail and something else entirely. the weight would also upset the cats finely tuned balance and limit its acrobatic potetial.

This would be less of an issue when it comes to big cats, a giant panther for example would easily bear the weight of some iron plates. Plates made of adamantine would be light enough for even your pet cat.

Chainmail is good because it has unmatched flexibility. A cat with a short "hoodie" of chainmail is much more protected and loses none of its capabilities. The only problem is that to distribute the weight of the maille, you need to attach it using as many points as possible. Im sure you can imagine the temperment of a cat festooned with straps and buckles, if it could move at all.

Leather is perhaps the best option, it is light and can be tooled to fit any shape. Leather armour would fit the cat like a second skin.

So you see? its really not that ridiculous when you stop to think about it. Any discreptancies can be worked around or are rendered null by the setting of the game.

This is dwarf fortress remember. A cat that lives in a cave and hunts for its own food is a far cry from that fuzzi pile of fur monopolizing your pillow. Likewise for the dogs, a daschund makes a grand companion, but a sled dog he is not.

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Tommy2U

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 05:21:00 am »

Armouring cats and dogs is a ridiculous idea.
A plausible solution is an introduction of dog collars. Reinforced, sometimes studded collars have been given to war, fighting and hunting dogs to protect their throats and necks against a throat bite - a favoured manner of attack of many animals.
Training a war dog could require such a collar - you have to attach a leash somewhere anyway, don't you?
I don't know if animals can carry items now, if they don't the collar could be simply used up in the training job and abstracted in war dog's better stats.
I agree that dog training is way too quick and easy now.
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Keilden

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2007, 05:44:00 am »

Well if its the right kind of dog dwarfs can use them as mounts :)
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Bricktop

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2007, 10:32:00 am »

Dwarves riding into battle on Great Danes? Possibly with a couple of Throwing Terriers as something to give the charge even more impact.
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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2007, 11:52:00 am »

Ridiculous based on what? Its not good enough to argue against something because it seems silly. Ill be the first to admit that canine or feline platemail is probably over the top, but remember that we no longer send animals into combat against blades and pointy sticks.

Police dogs nowadays merit a kevlar vest because of the danger they experience at work. There are detractors of course, it limits the dogs movement, causes them to suffer heat exaustion. Both can be easily eliminated with improved design and making the armour easily removable, velcro anyone?

Regardless of what people say, even a piece of cloth can be the difference between life and death in combat. If you dont believe me, then consider why people took to wearing silk shirts against broadhead arrows, the material caught the arrowhead and enveloped it preventing it (hopefully) from ripping something vital when it came time to pull it out.

Wouldnt you want that extra chance at life for your dog?

The only factor keeping animal armour from being practical is weight. If weight was not an issue we would probably make armour out of concrete. Some animals can handle the weight of armour and more, elephants are a good example. Armoured war elephants are TERRIFYING on the battlefield, at least untill the handler dies and it runs wild, but that comes later.

So, what breed of dog IS the war dog? That is something not set in stone yet. In the future we will probably have many breeds. Some like the wiener dog were bred for the specific purpose of burrow combat.

Im not sure where i got this picture, i found it while browsing my folder full of funny cat pictures. This is what a real war dog would look like, big, strong and tough.
:D
:D

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Draco18s

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2007, 12:21:00 pm »

quote:
That brings us to cats. I would never consider armouring the average domestic cat. But domestic cats are EVOLVED to be a total suckup, we bring them food and everything.

Nono, domesticated dogs are the suckups.
Remember, a dog upon being fed by humans thinks, "They must be gods!"  A cat upon the same situation thinks "I must be a god!"
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Tamren

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Re: Mounts and pet armour
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2007, 12:47:00 pm »

Aye those cats trained us well -_-
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