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Author Topic: Restless undead  (Read 25025 times)

EvilMoogle

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2010, 01:17:27 pm »

As for 'proper rituals' preventing reanimation, I feel like the dwarves' rituals would involve filling the coffin with magma, dismembering the corpse, or chaining it into the coffin rather than 'sanctifying' it or whatever, even if such an option did exist once magic was implemented. What happens if you're without a priest when you get trapped in an evil biome? And other than political reasons, keeping the church the priest in question's attached to happy, keeping the gods happy, etc, why take hours on a ceremony that could be done in minutes?

Oddly the families of the deceased typically have problems with dismembering the corpses....  Though players mileage may vary as to which is worse.
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Hyndis

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2010, 02:59:41 pm »

I'm not sure of the resistance to religion. Religion is already in the game, and in fantasy settings religion tends to play a very important role. One reason being that in most fantasy settings the gods do actually interact with mortals on a regular basis. IIRC, Toady wants religion to have more part in the game, and this is one way that religion can have an increased importance in the game.

Funerals or other ceremonies is a perfect use for religion.
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Andeerz

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2010, 03:36:46 pm »

I'm not sure of the resistance to religion. Religion is already in the game, and in fantasy settings religion tends to play a very important role. One reason being that in most fantasy settings the gods do actually interact with mortals on a regular basis. IIRC, Toady wants religion to have more part in the game, and this is one way that religion can have an increased importance in the game.

Funerals or other ceremonies is a perfect use for religion.

Yeah!  Also, in real medieval settings, religion also tends to play a very important role.  And by very important, I mean among the largest if not the largest role in medieval society.  Restless undead would give an even more compelling reason (as if there was one in the first place) for religious institutions to stick their grubby hands in the lives of the common folk.   
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EvilMoogle

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #123 on: September 24, 2010, 07:22:49 am »

An idea along this line that makes sense to me, maybe the chance of a dwarf rising should depend on two factors: the "evilness" of the biome, and the happiness of the dwarf when he died.

The idea of souls with "unfinished business" rising from the dead is quite established.  Could even give the zombie various goals based on their mental state at death.

Examples:
Dwarf fell into a depression after failing to craft an artifact and starved?  Zombie will seek to destroy any/all of the same type of items as his planned artifact.
Dwarf starved in prison?  Zombie will seek to kill all the members of the Fortress Guard (and/or the noble that made the mandate that punished him).

I'm sure people more creative than me can come up with a long list of other options.  If nothing else the zombie should attempt to return to the dwarf's room to "defend."
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Senty

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #124 on: October 29, 2010, 05:57:40 pm »

was going to post something similar,

In my opinion the system should take two things into account: circumstances around the death, and the type of burial.  Circumstances being what EvilMoogle mentioned and burial falling into three different categories:

left on the field / throw in trash (bad)
buried in graveyard (neutral)
laid to rest in a coffin (good)

Being left out in the field to rot or ending up in the refuse pile should near guarantee that a spirit comes back angry as either a zombie, skeleton, or ghost depending on decomposition.

Burial in a graveyard, possibly including a crafted good or totem to appease the spirit/diety, should go a long way towards placating a spirit and greatly reduce their chances of coming back.

Being laid to rest in a coffin would greatly reduce the chances of coming while also increasing the chances that they might come back as a benevolent guardian.
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Hyndis

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2010, 06:50:28 pm »

Toady mentioned something about "night creatures" and giving fortress mode more threats to deal with.

Possibly restless undead? I hope so!

It would be !!FUN!!  :D
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Kurouma

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #126 on: October 30, 2010, 04:42:02 am »

He did say he was 'diversifying the fortress mode troubles'. Should be interesting to see the next release
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NinjaE8825

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2010, 09:49:01 am »

Here's how I'd do burial.

First off, there's the actual burial ceremony; friends and family (and some religious dude, if the civ isn't atheist) of the stiff gather around the coffin, instead of the current "haul the corpse to coffin, and done" burial.
Undead prevention would come in two forms. The first, least invasive, would be ritual magic of some sort to keep evil spirits out of the coffin. Depending on worldgen, this could be anything from just placing the coffin on sanctified ground (religious ceremonies would have an area defended by a bigger spirit or god to bonk any invading spirits on the head in exchange for worship or offerings, secular might draw up a pentagram in silver shavings or something) to having to cover the coffin in holy runes or sutras or decorate it with willow (might vary depending on the type of spirit).
The second would be the hardcore version, physically restraining the corpse (chains, staking it to the coffin) ritual dismemberment, and burying it upside down so it digs into HFS instead of the fortress. This would give the living dwarves bad thoughts, but less than from seeing their old buddy rise from his grave and eat his daughter's still-warm brain. The dead dwarf's ghost might also be a little pissed about what they did to his corpse, but a sufficiently awesome tomb and grave-offerings should keep him from haunting anyone.
Some civ's/religions would be in luck and have cremation as their socially accepted form of burial. Cremation would leave no corpse, but sufficiently enraged ghosts might manifest as spirits of fire or something.
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Sunken

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2010, 05:28:26 pm »

was going to post something similar,

In my opinion the system should take two things into account: circumstances around the death, and the type of burial.  Circumstances being what EvilMoogle mentioned and burial falling into three different categories:

left on the field / throw in trash (bad)
buried in graveyard (neutral)
laid to rest in a coffin (good)

Yes, there are at least two ways to look at dead returning to life. The first is what has been discussed most in this thread - zombiefication, where some contagion, or magic, enters a body and animates it. Vampirism is possible to be regarded in this way too.
But there is the other category, where it is the deceased himself that decides to return for whatever reason. I wouldn't limit this to the state of mind at the time of death, but allow factors after death to affect it.

On this view, religious rituals are not primarily counters to the evil and magic of the biome, but rather the necessary degree of respect paid so that the dwarf himself will be at peace and move on rather than get up to mischief. The deity doesn't have to either exist or have any power over undeath, but only be the one the dead person wants.
It's not just burial versus non-burial; some dwarfs (nobles) may expect lavish coffins and tombs and rest uneasy if they're disappointed (I can hear noble-slayer players howling at the thought! Mandates after death?!). Of course, the deceased's capacity of returning from death might be modified by the biome - but the ritual works on his inclination.

Now, it's typically incorporeal undead that are associated with "voluntary" return from death - ghosts, spectres, wraiths - but we also have revenants, ghouls and ghasts. And angry mummies, of course.

My opinion then: burial helps against zombies because it keeps them from getting out physically - and it keeps any wandering animating spirits from getting at the corpse so easily. Burial - with ritual - helps against revenants, ghosts and the like because they placate the deceased.
Specific deities might have powers in addition to this, subject to whatever the magic arc comes up with.
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Kurouma

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2010, 07:41:49 pm »

Corpses left unburied (and animals ones left whole in the refuse stockpile) in evil biomes should be the only ones to become undead IMO. If the motivation is unhappiness, then any kind of subterranean burial should be enough to satisfy a dwarfen spirit (unless they have a sense of entitlement such as the nobility might).
Or if you want to do it as an involuntary thing (i.e forced zombification by some external force), then you might need coffins made of metal. Coffins of wood or stone could be broken out of by zombies and skeletons, but metal ones should be secure enough to hold the undead I think.
Of course, on reclaim, some of the coffins have degraded enough for the undead to escape.

Basically I like the above post's tone. Religious rituals based on inclination, not capacity, for dwarfs to return, with that left up to biome. Burial a deterrent for the physical undead. Ritual a deterrent for the spiritual undead - but only in the case of those dwarfs who think they deserve it. The average Urist McDoe is happiest with plain rock and dirt, as any good dwarf should be.
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Hyndis

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2010, 11:27:01 am »

Corpses left unburied (and animals ones left whole in the refuse stockpile) in evil biomes should be the only ones to become undead IMO. If the motivation is unhappiness, then any kind of subterranean burial should be enough to satisfy a dwarfen spirit (unless they have a sense of entitlement such as the nobility might).

This is what I had in mind primarily, mostly just to keep things simple. Leaving corpses laying around in an evil biome have a small chance to spontaneously reanimate unless the corpse is dealt with somehow. Magma, atom smashers, coffins, or butcher workshops are all ways to deal with a corpse.

As for why the corpses rise up again, I think it may be best to leave this vague on purpose.

Why?

So the player can assign his/her own meaning to it. Why does a dwarf go into a fey mood? Why is it a possessed mood? Well, the reason is due to a formula involving the number of tiles uncovered, but the player can assign his/her own meaning as to why the dwarf gets a strange mood. Is it to forge a mighty weapon to avenge the death of a friend? Create an artifact to commemorate an important event? This allows the player to create his/her own narrative.

Same deal with the undead rising. The mechanics of it a relatively simple formula, just like a dwarf going into a strange mood.

Corpse laying on the ground or in a refuse stockpile somewhere has like a 5% chance per month of despawning the corpse object and being replaced with an undead creature of the same type, so a dead deer gives you a 50% chance of zombie and a 50% chance of skeletal deer. 5% chance per month, rolled each month.

The player can then assign his/her own narrative as to why this happens. Evil spirits inhabiting the region? Vengeful spirits of badly treated corpses going to punish your fortress for not giving the dead a proper burial? Demons from HFS influencing things and causing corpses to rise up? People not respecting the gods? All are potential answers.

Sometimes you want to leave things vague. Don't get bogged down in the details. Sometimes too much information is stifling, and can harm the narrative.

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Sunken

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2010, 01:03:02 pm »

Of course, the trope is that particular types of death will tend to cause undeath - unavenged treachery or other such loose ends, irrespective of the physical or ceremonial aspects of interment. However these are almost always incorporeal so maybe not at issue in this thread.
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Hyndis

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Re: Restless undead
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2010, 03:00:08 pm »

Of course, the trope is that particular types of death will tend to cause undeath - unavenged treachery or other such loose ends, irrespective of the physical or ceremonial aspects of interment. However these are almost always incorporeal so maybe not at issue in this thread.

Yes, but the problem is if you go into all sorts of details you're going to need to make a rule for every situation and scenario. You end up with rules upon rules upon rules.

My initial idea, in my OP, was that it used a very simple, straightforward mechanic. But despite being done by a simple mechanic, one that would be relatively easy for Toady to implement and be very light on the CPU, it would have massive gameplay changes.

Undead army blockading the outside of your fortress, trapping your dwarves behind thick stone walls, where all migrants, caravans, and even goblin sieges end up joining the horde? Undead mosh pit you can toss prisoners into? All things you can put into the game.

Leaving the "why" open and unexplained avoids getting boggled down into technobabble, as well as makes things easier on Toady.
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