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[scriver]

Squirt squirt says the nazi tank!

[ChairmanPoo]

From your illustration it looks less like you wish to immolate the protesters and more like you wish to apply suntan lotion en masse.

Indeed. Now we know why he never succeeded as an artist.

Hey, do you know who was a failed artist too? HITLER!
(yet even HITLER drew better than that)

I am somewhat disturbed that you wish to steal a tank used by Nazi Germany and use it to burn protesters.

You should be disturbed that he wishes to steal a tank used by nazi Germany and use it to apply sex lotion to protesters.

[Kogan Loloklam]

(Stuff about Militia being useless)

We'll have to disagree I tend to think that a bunch of untrained people can effectively cripple a modern government. It just takes a little understanding on how vunerable organization really is. You are probably correct that the same thing that arms them ensures they wouldn't be successful though. You'd have to piss off a lot of people before you'd see anything like that, and at that point you'd probably be facing revolts by military units anyway, so...

...Or they decide the legal system would be much easier without the fifth amendment...

And instead it will be replaced by a system of agreeing to things you didn't commit at the threat of being tossed in jail for a much longer time if you don't agree... wait a second...

I can't tell if you're missing the fact that he was employing a slippery slope fallacy, or if you're alluding to plea bargains.

Plea bargains. I think they are evil.

Now, there are valid arguments for allowing people to own guns, and carry concealed handguns, so long as that's also regulated so that criminals and the mentally unstable can't legally purchase them. "We's gonna overtrow dem tyrants!" is not one of them, and honestly is a pretty good indicator that the individual in question isn't mentally sound enough to own firearms (or sharp objects) in the first place.

Again, I'll have to disagree with you there, as is my right.

Because every criminal can fool the police so easily. They don't have to find a gun, they just have to find powder residute and they will know what to search.

Sperm samples too?
You know, most normal humans don't actually make love to their guns.

So you know how to hide your gun from the police but you didn't hide your face. You're a fricking genius.

It's much easier just to face-shoot people that look at you. That'll encourage the next one not to look.

Well, let's stop here. House robber usually aren't bringing gun along when they act, in belgium, and when they do, they usually don't use them. Fact.

And you think the US is so different? We carry guns around when it isn't necessary? I'm sorry but our criminals aren't actually stupid. They take the tools they need for the job. Our gun murder rates aren't anything special, it is just more convenient to use a gun rather than a knife. A knife works just the same though, and people use them as well.

Of course, an hardened criminal will have access to gun. But it won't use them as readily, because that would make no sense. And madman don't have access to gun, because you have to know a gun dealer, and that's hard. When we have gun related trouble , it's usually a 22 long carabine that is involved (amateurs) or a assault rilfe (armored fund transport robery).

The only people who don't have access to guns in a society of strict gun laws are the people who follow the laws. If you don't follow the laws already, what does it matter if you own a gun? There are plenty of things for such individuals to be arrested for, if they feel they need a gun they will deal with it in the same way they deal with other illegal activities.

Finland is rich, have a stong social care (free school for everyone, even those who are not citizen), have a low population density, and low criminality. Yes, when every thing else is perfect you can allow firearm. But right now the US, thank to your stupid firearm policy, have a death by gunwound count worthy of a third world country.

And Israel has a smaller one than even your country despite the fact there is a war going on there. I think your country needs to mimic Israel's gun control laws.
You are right about us having a higher death by gunwound count as high as what are found in developing countries, but we don't stop that trend with measly fire arms. We have it for murders in general. America is violent, and if you got a problem with it I'll kick you right in your waffles.

I don't understand why "developed" nations don't understand that America is a hodgepodge of third world and first world groups thrown haphazardly together in a land area about the size of the entire Europe. You all act surprised when we act the barbarian nation, and are surprised when we suddenly flip and become so "civilized".
Firearm related deaths are DEATHS. When you tackle the problem of people causing deaths, you tackle in the same issue the massive amount of firearm related deaths. Eliminating guns won't eliminate the desire for people to kill people, and people will always be creative in thinking up ways to do so.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

(Stuff about Militia being useless)

We'll have to disagree I tend to think that a bunch of untrained people can effectively cripple a modern government. It just takes a little understanding on how vunerable organization really is.

Issue one:

How massively distributed the US government is, and that it has protocols in place for dealing with the death of politicians. Who/what are you going to take out that would lead to a collapse? Politicians are all replaceable, and killing one just makes him a martyr. Buildings? There may be symbolic value to some of them, but nothing that would make a palpable difference could be seized by a bunch of ill-equipped hicks.

How's this little fantasy going to play out? You storm a building... now, what's a valid target to assert control over a region? A courthouse? A police station? Or maybe you'll just drive around in pickup trucks shooting at cops, and telling the news you've seized the city? Say you actually pull that off, what do you think will happen? The nation will say "by golly their copkilling spree has really taught those fascist pigs not to take my guns!"? Hell, since a lot of people have guns, you'd probably have to deal with vigilantes too, since people wouldn't take too kindly to a bunch of assholes driving around shooting up anyone who looked at them wrong. And then there's the governmental response, which brings me to...

Issue two:

The government has more guns than you, and most of them are bigger than yours! You think your merry band of drunken louts could deal with so much as a swat team? And if you did, you think they'd give up? No, that would just make them mad, and they'd roll in some armored vehicles and shoot you to pieces, assuming you all didn't just shit yourselves and surrender at this point. You might, by some unfathomable stroke of luck, take a few down with you, but you really think you'd have the resources and numbers to deal with them? Which brings me to...

Issue three:

You would not, under any conceivable circumstances, have the numbers either to topple the government, or even to be considered more than a small band of batshit insane extremists. Conditions can't get bad enough to garner popular support for violent (and suicidal) action. Politicians may be corrupt to the bone, but they still pander to their constituents, and when they don't, they have quite good PR to distract and deceive their constituents. Meaning people won't be so dissatisfied that throw their lives away, most likely for nothing, at least in numbers capable of actually accomplishing anything (and again, who's to say these dissenters would even be unified? in all likelihood they're more likely to turn on each other before they go after the much harder target of the government), if nothing else because...

Issue four:

So, you've somehow managed to topple the vast power structure that enforces peace and rights between individuals, congratulations! You now have a fragmented populace, a very large percentage of which probably doesn't agree with what you've done. There are two possibilities at this point:

a) Your paramilitary organization is powerful enough to exert influence over the remnants of old power structures (presumably, local institutions would be left intact, unless you're following a just-in-it-to-see-the-world-burn mentality and destroy everything). You've enacted a violent coup, and people for some reason are listening to you, instead of lynching you in the streets and reseating the government you just toppled. Congratulations, you're now a military dictator! Which is somehow better than an elected government...

b) You destroyed the power structures, somehow so thoroughly as to leave the nation too fragmented to just undo the destruction, but oops! You got lynched in the streets by your detractors! There's no organization powerful enough to replace the old government, so you end up with petty warlords and organized criminals, assuming another nation doesn't just swoop in and take the territory (which, actually, would be greatly preferable to pseudo-anarchic warlordism).



Like I said, there are valid reasons for owning a gun, namely hunting, self defense (mostly through deterrence), and, to a much lesser degree collecting. Thinking it will somehow protect you against, or by some even-more-insane stretch meaningfully injure an ostensibly malign entity that's infinitely more powerful than you are? That's completely insane. You may as well insist that a spork will protect you from aliens.

[ChairmanPoo]

what's a spork?

[Sir Pseudonymous]

It's a spoon crossed with a fork. Usually made of plastic.

[Heron TSG]

what's a spork?

Some call them foons, but they blaspheme.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Quiet! We are saving the foon name for when the public gets tired of sporks! You are ruining the redeployment plan!

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Why sporks are in fact a more reasonable defense against aliens than a hunting rifle is against the government.

[Astramancer]

Here's some fun facts:

In 2008 (in the US)—

    * An offender was armed with a gun, knife, or other object used as a weapon in an estimated 20% of all incidents of violent crime.
    * Offenders used firearms to commit 7% of violent crime incidents in 2008.
    * Robberies (40%) were the most likely crime to involve an armed offender.
    * Firearms (24%) were the most common weapons used in robberies.
    * Most rapes and assaults did not involve the use of a weapon. 
    * Of serious nonfatal violent victimizations, 28% were committed with a firearm, 4% were committed with a firearm and resulted in injury, and less than 1% resulted in gunshot wounds.

===========

From some of the other stuff linked on that page (which comes straight from the US Department of Justice)

In 2007, there were a grand total of 385,178 crimes that involved a firearm.

Yes, that's a large number, but...

According to the US Census Bureau, there were 307,006,550 people in the US in 2009 (it was the closest easy figure to find).

We also have a large number of people.  I don't know if similar statistics are easy to find (or even available) for other countries for comparison.

[Leafsnail]

Well, the US does have roughly double the murder rate of the UK.  In addition to a lot more firearm related deaths, of course...

Not sure how it compares to other countries, though.

[Kogan Loloklam]

...

So you agree that they could, in fact, topple a modern government? It seems that your issue four accepts the possibility of it.


All I'm saying is don't discount the militias, especially when they can get their own tanks
Of course it's hard to get exactly what you want unless you deal in bulk orders, but you can also manufacture your own. All the parts are perfectly orderable online, as is the blueprints. They also are not illegal to have, or arm if they are registered properly (in most states. I won't say there isn't one out there with some kind of ban that wouldn't survive a constitutional challenge)

[Phmcw]

Astramanser : it's easy to get the death by gunshot rate for any country.

Kogan Loloklan : Ok, you are pretending that American are violent and that it's all right . Well if it suit you, all right.
Well every American here don't come crying if you or your relative are shot in the streets, American are violent and if you pretend otherwise  (for instance that it's the lack of social care that is crippling your nation), he'll come and kick you in the waffle.
It's the will of god, and of the founding father, who want you to be armed and ready to fight.

Stupid republican.

Oh yes I forgot, the major ass kicking you're getting in Iraq and Afghanistan tell me that row of angry poeple can be effective against a modern army after all. And what will happen there when you are gone tell me that it's still not a good idea.

[ChairmanPoo]

In the right circumstances, guerrilla warfare can topple a goverment, but then again, those were goverments that were already in crisis.  And it's worth pointing out that such toppling was not related at all to the national policies on gun control.

[Strife26]

I don't think that Phmcw is quite coherent enough to be serious.