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Author Topic: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.  (Read 571475 times)

Nopenope

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1260 on: December 29, 2014, 05:25:10 pm »
The DF languages being concise as they are, "Ost" can mean anything from "I'm afraid" to "They will be afraid." Subject and state of being are omitted.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1261 on: December 30, 2014, 12:17:36 am »
Quote from: Maltavius on December 29, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
Quote from: Dirst on December 27, 2014, 05:13:33 pm
Quote from: Maltavius on December 27, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
I really don't like Fear2_1 through Fear2_4  it says OOOST all the time which means Cheeeeese in Swedish.

So basically the dwarves are running around shouting for cheese when they are afraid.
Ost means "fear" in DF's human language.  I think the only cheese-related fear in DF is getting a migrant wave full of legendary cheesemakers when you really need a weaponsmith :)
Well it's horrible :) I just took them out now.

It's not like I run around shouting FEAR FEAR FEAR whenever I'm scared. AAArgh or Ooooh would be more appropriate.

In some languages (like Japanese for example) you use the adjective exactly like that to express the emotion. For example: Itai! Atsui! Kowai!  Meaning Painful (Aargh!), Hot (Aargh!), Scary (Aargh!). Gotta remember when you spill hot coffee over yourself that it's Atsui! not Itai! or people will look at you strangely...
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Maltavius

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1262 on: January 01, 2015, 11:33:58 am »
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2014, 12:17:36 am
Quote from: Maltavius on December 29, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
Quote from: Dirst on December 27, 2014, 05:13:33 pm
Quote from: Maltavius on December 27, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
I really don't like Fear2_1 through Fear2_4  it says OOOST all the time which means Cheeeeese in Swedish.

So basically the dwarves are running around shouting for cheese when they are afraid.
Ost means "fear" in DF's human language.  I think the only cheese-related fear in DF is getting a migrant wave full of legendary cheesemakers when you really need a weaponsmith :)
Well it's horrible :) I just took them out now.

It's not like I run around shouting FEAR FEAR FEAR whenever I'm scared. AAArgh or Ooooh would be more appropriate.

In some languages (like Japanese for example) you use the adjective exactly like that to express the emotion. For example: Itai! Atsui! Kowai!  Meaning Painful (Aargh!), Hot (Aargh!), Scary (Aargh!). Gotta remember when you spill hot coffee over yourself that it's Atsui! not Itai! or people will look at you strangely...

Yes, "Ouch that hurt", "That was painful" are all valid expressions, but do you scream SCAAAAARY when someone jumps out in front of you?

No you'd probably say Aaargh or Iiii or something, and then when the scary thing was over, you'd state " That was scary".
Or as the dwarves would say, "That was cheese!" :)
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Kuikka

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1263 on: January 02, 2015, 10:24:48 am »
Quote from: Maltavius on January 01, 2015, 11:33:58 am
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2014, 12:17:36 am
Quote from: Maltavius on December 29, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
Quote from: Dirst on December 27, 2014, 05:13:33 pm
Quote from: Maltavius on December 27, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
I really don't like Fear2_1 through Fear2_4  it says OOOST all the time which means Cheeeeese in Swedish.

So basically the dwarves are running around shouting for cheese when they are afraid.
Ost means "fear" in DF's human language.  I think the only cheese-related fear in DF is getting a migrant wave full of legendary cheesemakers when you really need a weaponsmith :)
Well it's horrible :) I just took them out now.

It's not like I run around shouting FEAR FEAR FEAR whenever I'm scared. AAArgh or Ooooh would be more appropriate.

In some languages (like Japanese for example) you use the adjective exactly like that to express the emotion. For example: Itai! Atsui! Kowai!  Meaning Painful (Aargh!), Hot (Aargh!), Scary (Aargh!). Gotta remember when you spill hot coffee over yourself that it's Atsui! not Itai! or people will look at you strangely...

Yes, "Ouch that hurt", "That was painful" are all valid expressions, but do you scream SCAAAAARY when someone jumps out in front of you?

No you'd probably say Aaargh or Iiii or something, and then when the scary thing was over, you'd state " That was scary".
Or as the dwarves would say, "That was cheese!" :)
Such nitpicking. Ost can mean many things, east for example in German. Even if they would say "öaljdldmaömdö" to express fear there would be an another person saying how it offends/amuses him because it means x in language y.

And this Japanese "itai" is the perfect example. There was a case when an exchange student moaned similar to "aarg aargh aargh" and local physiotherapist didnt know she was expressing pain. Just because she didnt moan "hurts hurts hurts" in Japanese. So it depends mostly on how you say the word itself.
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Maltavius

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1264 on: January 03, 2015, 06:24:08 am »
Quote from: Kuikka on January 02, 2015, 10:24:48 am
Quote from: Maltavius on January 01, 2015, 11:33:58 am
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2014, 12:17:36 am
Quote from: Maltavius on December 29, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
Quote from: Dirst on December 27, 2014, 05:13:33 pm
Quote from: Maltavius on December 27, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
I really don't like Fear2_1 through Fear2_4  it says OOOST all the time which means Cheeeeese in Swedish.

So basically the dwarves are running around shouting for cheese when they are afraid.
Ost means "fear" in DF's human language.  I think the only cheese-related fear in DF is getting a migrant wave full of legendary cheesemakers when you really need a weaponsmith :)
Well it's horrible :) I just took them out now.

It's not like I run around shouting FEAR FEAR FEAR whenever I'm scared. AAArgh or Ooooh would be more appropriate.

In some languages (like Japanese for example) you use the adjective exactly like that to express the emotion. For example: Itai! Atsui! Kowai!  Meaning Painful (Aargh!), Hot (Aargh!), Scary (Aargh!). Gotta remember when you spill hot coffee over yourself that it's Atsui! not Itai! or people will look at you strangely...

Yes, "Ouch that hurt", "That was painful" are all valid expressions, but do you scream SCAAAAARY when someone jumps out in front of you?

No you'd probably say Aaargh or Iiii or something, and then when the scary thing was over, you'd state " That was scary".
Or as the dwarves would say, "That was cheese!" :)
Such nitpicking. Ost can mean many things, east for example in German. Even if they would say "öaljdldmaömdö" to express fear there would be an another person saying how it offends/amuses him because it means x in language y.

And this Japanese "itai" is the perfect example. There was a case when an exchange student moaned similar to "aarg aargh aargh" and local physiotherapist didnt know she was expressing pain. Just because she didnt moan "hurts hurts hurts" in Japanese. So it depends mostly on how you say the word itself.

Yes, that was just exactly what I said, in Swedish it means Cheese. Since the fear sound played ALOT, I grew tired of the game shouting cheese in a spooky voice to me so I removed the offending mp3 files.

That change made Soundsense into a useful program again for me. If I'm allowed to be more nittpicky (if that's a word) maybe we should translate all of the sound-bites to dwarven?
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Thundercraft

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1265 on: January 04, 2015, 05:26:55 am »
Quote from: Maltavius on December 27, 2014, 04:08:50 pm
I really don't like Fear2_1 through Fear2_4  it says OOOST all the time which means Cheeeeese in Swedish.

So basically the dwarves are running around shouting for cheese when they are afraid.

I don't know Swedish and I still don't like them. It seems out of place and not what I'd expect someone to exclaim in fear.

Quote from: Maltavius on December 29, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
It's not like I run around shouting FEAR FEAR FEAR whenever I'm scared. AAArgh or Ooooh would be more appropriate.

Good point!

Quote from: Maltavius on January 01, 2015, 11:33:58 am
Yes, "Ouch that hurt", "That was painful" are all valid expressions, but do you scream SCAAAAARY when someone jumps out in front of you?

No you'd probably say Aaargh or Iiii or something, and then when the scary thing was over, you'd state " That was scary".

Exactly. You could easily have had recordings of "Aaaah", "Oooooh" and "Iiii" in place of Fear2_1 through Fear2_4 and nobody would complain that they're not spoken in dwarvish. In fact, the intro animation to Dwarf Fortress ends with a miner breaking through and shouting "Oooooh!" in response to something scary and undoubtedly dangerous. That's canon, folks.

Quote from: Kuikka on January 02, 2015, 10:24:48 am
Such nitpicking. Ost can mean many things...

There's nothing wrong with nitpicking. And we are invited to provide feedback, suggestions, or contribute to the project. Besides, he raised some good points and I found the discussion interesting.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on December 30, 2014, 12:17:36 am
In some languages (like Japanese for example) you use the adjective exactly like that to express the emotion. For example: Itai! Atsui! Kowai!  Meaning Painful (Aargh!), Hot (Aargh!), Scary (Aargh!). Gotta remember when you spill hot coffee over yourself that it's Atsui! not Itai! or people will look at you strangely...

When someone gets hurt or accidentally spills coffee on themselves (foreigner or otherwise), they'll blurt out whatever comes naturally (polite or otherwise). At the moment the pain is registered by the brain, I don't think they much care whether their vocalization or vocabulary choice will draw strange looks or blank expressions. It's not like they have much time to think about it.

Extreme cases of fear would also elicit nearly-automatic responses. If someone in a scary outfit jumps out at you from the bushes at night, you don't really think about what you say, you just vocalize. You flinch and you shout. That said, your first language and language habits (such as picking up "colorful metaphors"; i.e, dirty words) could influence this.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:29:09 am by Thundercraft »
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Kuikka

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1266 on: January 05, 2015, 07:24:53 am »
In a sense I find it really difficult to make a "new language" sound good and please everyone. I kinda liked Toikku's announcements as those were pretty humorous. But well, conserning the whole "combat training sounds spam" issue (at least in the version I'm using) I wouldn't like my DF experience to be like listening this http://youtu.be/5aLR-8c11ms?t=22s.

Quote
When someone gets hurt or accidentally spills coffee on themselves (foreigner or otherwise), they'll blurt out whatever comes naturally (polite or otherwise). At the moment the pain is registered by the brain, I don't think they much care whether their vocalization or vocabulary choice will draw strange looks or blank expressions. It's not like they have much time to think about it.
That's entirely based on the culture. Continuing the oldy Japanese example, it's common to hear "itatatatatata" being "blurted" after pain experience (maybe also a way to "lessen the pain" like cursing would do?). Somewhere else it's not the case as ai au aargh ouch and such are being said.

Quote
In fact, the intro animation to Dwarf Fortress ends with a miner breaking through and shouting "Oooooh!" in response to something scary and undoubtedly dangerous.
Weird, I always regarded that as "surprised" instead of "scared". But that only tells how difficult it is to define "correct" sounds.
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Poonyen

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1267 on: January 07, 2015, 06:32:01 am »
I'm gonna jump in at this point of the discussion and say that I'll record some more voiceovers. Just give me a script. Also feel free to contribute, though ;)

About the infamous "ost"-iness: When I recorded the sounds, I had adventure mode in mind, not Fortress Mode combat. I didn't even know they would be used in Fortress Mode. What that means is that the dialogue sound has to represent all things "feary". This means that  "Aaargh!", "Fuck! Run!" and "Brah, you're not gonna believe this scary shit..." all have to use the same sound. Zwei said before that the program won't support individual lines yet, so I decided to just take one word that represents "fear": "ost", which means fear. The word choice is thus thematic.

As I said, I'll record some requests. We should try to make this work well, to enrich the playing experience for everyone.

On a side note, zwei, here's two new tracks for 2015 if you want to include them.

Mp3s can be dl'd here http://www.reverbnation.com/simonswerwer
FLACs are on soundcloud: Danger Room, The Storm And The Bounty
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I like to make music especially for Dwarf Fortress and Soundsense in my spare time (https://www.youtube.com/simonswerwer, http://soundcloud.com/simonswerwer). Also check out Toadese Language Utility to read and write DF dwarven texts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136098). Bang the tankards!

Scoops Novel

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1268 on: January 21, 2015, 08:13:22 am »
I hope you guys can keep up with the graphics modders :P. I want the mating call of the toucan damn it! Do you plan on that level of detail?

How could i forget- got any plans when tavern music is put in the game?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 07:29:32 am by Novel Scoops »
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Cheet4h

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1269 on: January 24, 2015, 07:59:44 am »
Hey guys, for a while now I have the issue that SoundSense seems to download, but not save any sound files with spaces in their name. To validate that my installation is not obsolete, I redownloaded SoundSense from the website and redownloaded the pack via the update. All files which contain spaces are not placed in their appropriate folders and are nowhere to be found on my hard drives, for example most of Simon Swerver's songs. All other sound files seem to be there.
Everytime I try to update again, it tries to download the missing files. There is network activity, the update claims it is downloading but doesn't throw any errors:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My operating system is an up-to-date Windows 7 Professional x64.
Java version is 1.8.0_25

I tried to run soundsense from different locations, one of them being the Desktop, the other my default LNP-Installation in "D:\OwnCloud\Dwarf Fortress\".

Any help regarding this?
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txtsd

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1270 on: January 24, 2015, 10:00:55 am »
Quote from: Cheet4h on January 24, 2015, 07:59:44 am
Hey guys, for a while now I have the issue that SoundSense seems to download, but not save any sound files with spaces in their name. To validate that my installation is not obsolete, I redownloaded SoundSense from the website and redownloaded the pack via the update. All files which contain spaces are not placed in their appropriate folders and are nowhere to be found on my hard drives, for example most of Simon Swerver's songs. All other sound files seem to be there.
Everytime I try to update again, it tries to download the missing files. There is network activity, the update claims it is downloading but doesn't throw any errors:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My operating system is an up-to-date Windows 7 Professional x64.
Java version is 1.8.0_25

I tried to run soundsense from different locations, one of them being the Desktop, the other my default LNP-Installation in "D:\OwnCloud\Dwarf Fortress\".

Any help regarding this?

The autoupdater is broken afaik. Download the music pack separately from the website and extract it to the correct location (./packs/)
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BenLubar

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1271 on: January 24, 2015, 05:21:13 pm »
After dealing with the configuration.xml defaults of "show the UI, volume = 0", I was able to test this on a headless system. I really dislike the flute noise that happens every time a manager job completes. Maybe that's ok for most human players, but my AI assigns everything through the manager, so it gets annoying fast.

I tried to disable the sound, but none of the syntax I tried worked. Is there any documentation on configuration.xml or am I supposed to not edit it manually?

Also, I enabled more verbose logging and got this:

Quote
24/01/2015 04:09:52.941: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.941: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.954: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.954: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.955: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.955: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.983: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.984: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.984: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:52.985: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:53.001: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:53.001: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:53.001: BooleanControl.Type.MUTE is not supported by sound system.
24/01/2015 04:09:53.002: FloatControl.Type.MASTER_GAIN is not supported by sound system.

Even if it's not being shown, processing more than one "we shouldn't be here" log message per millisecond is probably not a good idea for performance.
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ArmokGoB

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1272 on: January 31, 2015, 10:51:24 am »
Is there a mirror for the soundpack? The link on the website gets around 150 KB/s.
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Baleur

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1273 on: February 01, 2015, 11:16:30 pm »
I'm also swedish, but please note that you really cant ask this soundpack to be specifically catering to the swedish language, when it mainly deals with dwarvish (or english for some understanding and translation). Otherwise every single voiceover recorded would have to be checked against every other language in the world. What if "aargh!" means "Pretty poppy flowers" in Swahili?

All in all we can just agree on cultural differences, one can not argue that using the adjective for "fear" is any less natural than simply spouting out "aargh!". It all depends on your culture. It is not something instinctual from birth, or we'd all simply be crying and grunting.
The simplest proof that language affects instinctual reactions is when you hurt yourself or get shocked. You most often actually do use local language words.

Such as "aj!!" or "fan!".
You dont grunt like a wild beast, unless you loose an arm or something.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: SoundSense: a sound engine for dwarf fortress.
« Reply #1274 on: February 02, 2015, 05:03:32 am »
Quote from: Baleur on February 01, 2015, 11:16:30 pm
Such as "aj!!" or "fan!".
You dont grunt like a wild beast, unless you loose an arm or something.

I hear you might squeal like a pig when you're...
Ah, never mind. Move along...
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