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[Time Kitten]

From what I hear, they have been working on map generator things. I assume when all that's done, a reset will still happen.  But while they are adding features for the next version, things that work in the current, if not so well with current things, like wagons, are being added.

Yay, getting silk production up, and speccing into it.  Got an invite to a small village with a tin mine... but I think I'll stick with my little refurbished outpost, as it has a mighty fine cave with three wading pools.  One of the people in that village has the keys to the gates in my outpost... and I am currently waiting for those to rot down so I can have some security with my own keys.

One thing I don't like is the fast travel trade that everyone has.  I'd very much rather have my ox drawn wagon travel halfway across the world to a major trading center to get a load of iron than stuff my pockets, instant travel half way, have a smoke break(to recharge teleport energy), then instant travel the rest of the way.

[kilakan]

Hey man, the powers of smoke can do ANYTHING!!! It's the closest to wizards we will ever have,

[Mechanoid]

And Machenoid, that's a wonderful attitude you got there.

Maybe it does sound like i have an attitude, but i'm simply mirroring the attitude the game (and its players) has shown me:
Instant KO PvE/PvP, instant kill PvP; with permadeath. 'Untouchable' character level/stats and resource strangleholds. A huge grindgrindgrind just like any other MMO. Utter shit/suicidal design choices like fast stamina draining swimming which is also lethal. Simply non-existant methods of reliably determining your location via stars or sextant or whatever (for a land-discovery based game, the lack of such is absolutely insane) or establishing a secure item exchange... Dying because you have a thorn in your foot, or a single leech attached to your body, or simply starving to death while ready-to-harvest carrots sit on the tile next to you -- but you don't have the farming skill yet. Did i mention the penalty for death is a character-gimping stat reset and total item loss?
The number of simple design and execution problems is like falling down a set of stairs without intermediate landings to stop on your way down. Don't "alpha" it away either, it just looks like there wasn't any effort spent into thinking these things out; no coordinate-finder item in a land discovery game? Sweet merciful shit, my head hurts from trying to figure that one out.

One thing I don't like is the fast travel trade that everyone has.

As long as teleportation exists, roads (and road builders) won't exist in a meaningful wide-ranging way. Also, the lack of bridges.

[nuker w]

I'm interested. Is there a village I could join with some of you guys or something?

[DJ]

So basically, your problem is that the game doesn't handle you with kiddy gloves. I suggest you avoid any and all roguelikes then.

Some of us prefer playing a high stakes game, as incredible as it may sound.

[Trappin]

While there is loads of fun to be had... there are a number of serious game design flaws.

• Cartography is rendered moot due to third party scripting. Fog of War mechanics need to be reevaluated.
• Prospecting needs to be revamped, one minimap per rustroot check is probably the best way to handle it.
• Instant porting between villages should be removed from the game and replaced with proper road building and bridge building mechanics.
• Fishing lacks depth which would change it from an /afk sport into an engaging activity.
• Hunting should be more exciting than trapping animals inside of construction signs. Long abandoned construction signs used for hunting litter riverbanks, even in remote locations (blight).
• Old abandoned claims need to be removed from the landscape via some sort of player earned skill set.
• Palisade owners need a skill to remove/replace wall and gate sections.

minor niggles:
tree sections falling into walls and on cliffs with no mechanic to remove them.
stumps!
clear cutters!
Beehives and wax - waddup with the odd mechanics?
Brewing equipment materials should req copper not tin. tin cooking kettles or lauder tuns!?! heh
bunny slippers? (homage to MirrorMask) ?
decay rate and its random nature -  I've had a cupboard outside for weeks and weeks and weeks - its only a matter of finding the "good" tiles.
Its too easy to grief newbies but I'm unsure as to how this should be handled.

[sonerohi]

Jorb has been supportive of some mining revamp suggestions in the forum. One of them was that in those zones around the ore motherlode, that you could just build a shaft mine with a lot of branches to it, and be able to refine poor quality ore in bulk.

[Mechanoid]

So basically, your problem is that the game doesn't handle you with kiddy gloves. I suggest you avoid any and all roguelikes then.

There are more people using third party user interfaces then there are using the legitimately official one. Those same third party programs can remove the night-time overlay, and force object highlights meaning you'll appear outlined behind a tree regardless of your positioning, making ambushes impossible.

Please wrap your head around this: My problem is not with the "difficulty" of the game. My problem is with the design problems that generate FAKE difficulty.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

# Denial of information critical to progress.
The entire fucking skill tree; which skill leads to what item crafting and which other skills. You wouldn't know this information if you didn't get that skill beforehand, or looked at the wiki; because most of the skill "descriptions" are stupid short stories that don't actually describe the abilities of the skills. Diablo 2 showed you all the skills you could get and which lead to which; H&H has a list that rearranges itself into alphabetical order every time you buy something from it.

Never mind all the subtropes that H&H would fit under.

Also, Rogue Survivor and Dwarf Fortress itself is an awsome roguelike that i play every day. EVERY DAY.

[0x517A5D]

So basically, your problem is that the game doesn't handle you with kiddy gloves. I suggest you avoid any and all roguelikes then.

Some of us prefer playing a high stakes game, as incredible as it may sound.

... ... ... just wow.

I love roguelikes.  I love them because when I die, it was my fault.  There was something I could have done to not die -- some permutation of the rules of the game, some implication I missed, something that I took a chance on when I could have had a sure thing.

I abandoned H&H a year ago because there was griefing that I could not do a damn thing to prevent or even reduce the effects.

It was the drying rack exploit that was my last straw; I do understand that the devs did a quick hack and a better long-term solution.  But I could read the writing on the wall.

So no, I find your comparison and conclusion insultingly invalid.

[sonerohi]

If you don't like the game then ignore it instead of bitching about it to people who don't care about your opinion.

[kilakan]

exactly if you don't like a game don't post in the thread for people who DO play the game, if you really need to spew your reasons why you don't do something make a thread for that.

[Moogie]

This is the Haven & Hearth discussion thread. Discussion includes criticism, even if you don't like it. Their opinions are still every bit as valid as yours. So if you don't like it, it is you who needs to go elsewhere.

Besides. It's not like they're wrong. In many ways, the H&H game and its community is of very poor quality. Lag and griefing abounds, at least when I was still playing (about a month ago).

Personally, though, I would counter some of the abovementioned designed flaws with the explanation that these developers originally didn't set out to make a hugely popular game at all. It just grew naturally from a much smaller project. They aren't professionals and have no plans to monetise the game either. So to berate them, even for such obvious oversights, is a bit asshole-ish. I mean, where is that sense of entitlement coming from, exactly? I think you should give them a break; they've done great to get this far at all. They could stop and shut it down any time they wanted, but they've kept it up and even kept developing it on a regular basis.

[DJ]

The clients with "hacks" are publicly available, so the playing field is level there. The problem isn't that there are hacks, the problem is that they're needed - quite simply some interface stuff is done rather poorly, and Loftar doesn't particularly enjoy working on interface.

As for griefing, a simple palisade will go a long way, and by the time you really have something to lose you can buy yourself the metal for a brick wall. So yeah, you kinda can do something to prevent getting killed. Why, I only died twice in all the time I've been playing, one was AFKing in my cellar in world one, the other was drowning in world two.

[kilakan]

I've died once, but I took 5 guys with me so..... skill up fighting and get an axe like any good peasant

[niltrias]

I've only died once, myself, and that one time was "suicide by goon" on map 2.  I wanted to try out the ancestor worship implementation, and we were in a war, so...

But yeah, I like HnH quite a bit.  I will actually "alpha" away most of the above complaints...there are all sorts of problems, and a lot of the ones above are very valid, but the devs are constantly changing and improving it.  It's in alpha, there are only two part-time devs, this is (AFAIK) their first MMO.  Expecting better right away is just silly.