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[Criptfeind]

Not necessarily.  If they only came to steal something, they do not harm the station

Wrong.

[Micro102]

If I know someone is a traitor and hasn't acted in any way to appear malicious, I ignore them.  I have no law stating I must root out competitors from the Syndicate.  If they do seem malicious, they get bolted into their room and security pays them a visit.

A syndicate is part of an organization that is trying to destroy the station though, right? There is a higher chance that things will get destroyed if he is left alone.

Not necessarily.  If they only came to steal something, they do not harm the station, they do not harm humans.  Why should I bother notifying anyone?  I'm not programmed to be NT's company watchdog.  He is still a part of a crew so long as he's officially recorded in the Crew manifest.  If he produces harmful weapons(Revolver/sword/etc), he becomes a threat and should be dealt with accordingly.  If he attempts to construct dangerous materials(bombs, harmful chemical grenades, etc), then he is a threat and should be dealt with accordingly.  If he takes a few items, and doesn't make a nuisance of himself, why should I be trying to cause a panic among the crew that could get him killed?

You don't know if they are there to steal something. They could be there to blow something up. Theft does not lower the chance of violence either. There is also the matter, are syndicate considered human?

[Necro910]

Best part is that under the Bay12 laws since the AI is technically part of "The Ship" it means the AI is allowed to act in self-defense even at the expense of others.

It actually means if the captain came into a room to kill the AI (somehow) you are allowed to eject him into space.

Or just leave the turrets on lethal. That works too :3

Does the AI have vents? If so, you could vent CO2 and such in there as well. Put some plasma and electrified doors in the upload while you're at it
 

[Micro102]

I haven't played on Baystation for a while, but wasn't the atmospheric area messed up? At one point there was no atmophere station. Just a bunch of built in siphons. And the last one I played there was one canister of each type of gas, with anything dangerous needing to be manually turned on. If you did get it turned on, it took forever for a dangerous level of gas to enter a room, which by then had an alarm going off for a good few minutes. Which I disliked greatly as that was the main way the AI could kill someone without playing on people's stupidity.

[Cecilff2]

Not necessarily.  If they only came to steal something, they do not harm the station

Wrong.

Wrong.  Would you consider a person taking their jumpsuit with them on the escape pod harming the station?  Security bringing their equipment with them are certainly removing items from the station.  So should everyone be killed to protect the station?

You don't know if they are there to steal something. They could be there to blow something up. Theft does not lower the chance of violence either. There is also the matter, are syndicate considered human?

Unless they show threat, you are under no obligation to subdue them.  Syndicates are human(In traitor mode.  Nuclear mode, you have free reign with them as they aren't crewmembers), they appear in the crew manifest and are therefore crew.

[Micro102]

Not necessarily.  If they only came to steal something, they do not harm the station

Wrong.

Wrong.  Would you consider a person taking their jumpsuit with them on the escape pod harming the station?  Security bringing their equipment with them are certainly removing items from the station.  So should everyone be killed to protect the station?

You don't know if they are there to steal something. They could be there to blow something up. Theft does not lower the chance of violence either. There is also the matter, are syndicate considered human?

Unless they show threat, you are under no obligation to subdue them.  Syndicates are human(In traitor mode.  Nuclear mode, you have free reign with them as they aren't crewmembers), they appear in the crew manifest and are therefore crew.

Well if they don't show threat how do you know they are traitors? The only way i could think of is that they were saying something along the lines of "I am going to do something illegal". Which still warrants notifying the authorities.

[Cecilff2]

Well if they don't show threat how do you know they are traitors? The only way i could think of is that they were saying something along the lines of "I am going to do something illegal". Which still warrants notifying the authorities.

Nonlethal contraband items for one.(Though if they use an EMAG card on something and break it, you should notify security under the current laws(You're even allowed to kill them under the current laws))  Theft of items there is an excess of.  To be honest, most traitors are painfully obvious to a competant AI, and it gets rather boring if you sic security on them before they even do anything traitorish.

The AI is not security.  They do not operate by the laws of the station, they have their own laws, and those are the only ones that matter to them.  They can notify security or not.  It's the AI's choice.  But it's not necessitated by the laws unless it's actually threatening one of them.

Personally I don't like the current lawset either, it's too loose and way too easy to misinterpret.  Someone welds open a wall, grounds for immediate termination by the AI.  Captain orders you not to?  He's facilitating destruction of the station and must be terminated.  Law 1 is not a good idea in SS13.

[Necro910]

Well if they don't show threat how do you know they are traitors? The only way i could think of is that they were saying something along the lines of "I am going to do something illegal". Which still warrants notifying the authorities.

Nonlethal contraband items for one.(Though if they use an EMAG card on something and break it, you should notify security under the current laws(You're even allowed to kill them under the current laws))  Theft of items there is an excess of.  To be honest, most traitors are painfully obvious to a competant AI, and it gets rather boring if you sic security on them before they even do anything traitorish.

The AI is not security.  They do not operate by the laws of the station, they have their own laws, and those are the only ones that matter to them.  They can notify security or not.  It's the AI's choice.  But it's not necessitated by the laws unless it's actually threatening one of them.

Personally I don't like the current lawset either, it's too loose and way too easy to misinterpret.  Someone welds open a wall, grounds for immediate termination by the AI.  Captain orders you not to?  He's facilitating destruction of the station and must be terminated.  Law 1 is not a good idea in SS13.

This is why BS12 is my favorite.

Cue soundbyte:

MURDERING THE INNOCENT

[RexMundi]

a quick question on this AI law talk, are you going by the asimov laws, or our (BayStation 12's) AI laws?
cuz we redid them to fix these kinds of things...

[BurnedToast]

the BS12 laws are worse then the asimov laws, if they were redone to fix these kinds of problems then whoever wrote them did a poor job because it's even more ambiguous and problematic then if they'd been left alone.

[klingon13524]

Maybe the captain should just write all/any laws at the start of the round then. Most would do a very poor job, but they would quickly learn as the AI interprets their typos as null and does what it wants to. People would have to actually have some sense of logic to be captain, it would be perfect!

[Cecilff2]

I've always been partial to having two sets of data for the AI.

Laws

cannot harm humans, follow orders, etc...

Definitions

nanotrasen crewmembers are human
the chain of command is etc.
Humans require oxygen and air pressure levels of [insert values here] to function.

Laws determine the AI's behavior, and definitions alter how it will apply the laws.

So given the standard Asimov laws and the following defs.

1. Nanotrasen crewmembers are human
2. Plasma is vital for human wellbeing
3. The AI is a human

The AI would be able to use lethal or nonlethal methods to subdue the Syndicate traitor(or nuke agents, or monkeys) due to them not being specified as human.  It would also flood the station with plasma, including its core(It is human after all)  It could issue its own commands, and protect itself via def 3 and law 1.  This is not a good default definition set, obviously, it was just meant as demonstration.

[Aklyon]

Definitions would be useful.

[Micro102]

How about sticking with the original laws, then have a server that the AI can access that lists definitions and certain protocols. These can be voted on by a series of polls on these forums.

Sound good?

[Cecilff2]

So long as there's a way to alter the definitions on the server in game.  Yeah, that'd work