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[Abalieno]

I was writing this as a reply on the Eurogamer thread, but then I considered it was going too off-topic.

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>There's only so much you can do in-game right now, so I won't be surprised if people start getting fatigued, like they do with any game, but if word continues to circulate around at least potential players will know where to go when they want to check back for an update, since we'll still be here.</STRONG>

Prioritize!

- Specialized stockpiles
- Prioritize jobs
- Better hunter AI
- Combat log
- Fire
- A way to refuse immigrants you don't want

Oh, I know you absolutely hate people that tell you what to do  

My opinion is that you are getting attention because you created a truly unique, addicting game with a lot of depth. If this game was just about the more classic rogue-like experience (the adventure mode) I don't think many of us would have known about it. So it's not where I think the "worth" is. It is surely an interesting addition, but not the one that was *decisive* for its relative success.

The "legendary item" you crafted (after being possessed by a fey spirit and risked going mad) is "dwarf fortress".

As a player, I keep refreshing the dev page every day and different times a day. Honestly I'm not much interested about what you add to the adventure game because that's not something that adds depth to the game I love and that I want to follow and see growing. While I dig every detail that goes to affect the "dwarf fortress" mode. And I also have to say that I'm not even so thrilled knowing you are going to work on a human and kobold or goblin city-building mode similar to the dwarf one but that at the end will divert the attentionfrom the dwarf fortress. It's a shift of focus (adds variation, but not depth).

If you add "depth" people will stay addicted. If you add "polish" new players more likely will stick with the game.

If instead you add or expand alternative modes you don't add an incremental value and disperse what makes this game great. At least if what you add doesn't go to influence and intersect with the other modes (which is always great).

There was recently a speech from Rob Pardo (working on World of Warcraft) where he talks about "concentrated coolness". It's off-topic here, but it's basically what I'm saying.

So I know you hate this kind of pressure and that you'll decide what you want, and that's great. But I also think that you now have a "fandom" now that is waiting for more  

You have so much planned for this game that it's a shame to see it moved too far in the future. Considering your programming time as a limited resource you should understand in which direction I'm tugging your sleeve.

My wish as a player is that you specialize and work more on the "dwarf fortress" mode, because it has a huge potential still to deliver. The more you polish and add depth, the more the value of this game increases. I also think that it's that part that got you the attention (unique gameplay, personalized building style, "graphic" game without much text to really "read", possibility to export maps to share/show with friends, incredible depth and design consistence and so on..)

It's great EXACTLY because it doesn't feel like a rogue-like.

While working on the sidetracks (adventure mode, other city-building modes, etc..) surely adds breadth to the game world, but doesn't directly add to the value that made this game draw so much attention.

[macbony]

One thing I'd love is linking a stock pile (maybe you can make another room called "stock room") to (a) workshop(s). You'd have another option in the queue screen for link to stock(pile/room) and both supplies and goods can be stored there. Then you can give "jobs" to the stockpile, like "gather stone-type/wood/ore/etc" and free haulers will bring that type (and only as many as are requested) to that particular stockpile. It'd allow for dedicated haulers to do more than whatever random jobs pop up and could almost be like repeating "patrol" orders. I see this as an extension of the first suggestion you gave.

[odd2k]

For the "too long, didn't read" crowd: You're saying you want more focus on fortress mode. I kind of feel the same, but only because it now shines so much thanks to the effort that is put into it. Still, the same could be said about adventure mode in the future, after it has been more fleshed out. I think we should trust the devious Toad with what he's doing, seeing how well he's made it already.

The only thing I can add about priorization is this: Do what gives the most improvement for the least amount of work first.

Also, fixed that for you VV

quote:Originally posted by Abalieno:
<STRONG>
The "legendary item" you crafted (after being possessed by a fey spirit and going stark raving mad in the process) is "dwarf fortress".</STRONG>

[dav]

I think it's weird to talk about value in a free game.  What's the matter, worried you won't get your double-click's worth?  It also sounds like you're speaking for everyone (ie people won't find value in a goblin version of the fortress) which is presumptuous.  

However, I agree with your main push, which is:
-I find DF the most fun part of the game and
-I hope Toady does more soon and
-Yay, Toady.

I wish people would say what they want without making it like "the other crap you do is worthless, why aren't you doing what I want."

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by dav:
<STRONG>I think it's weird to talk about value in a free game. (...) </STRONG>

Do things need to have a cost to get value ?

[ September 14, 2006: Message edited by: flap ]

[dav]

No, of course not, but "incremental value"?  It just sounds like cost-benefit-analysis to me, except that the cost is Toady's (unless you're donating).  It just sounded weird.  I guess too many threads of "is FFXXIIF worth it??!!??" have gotten to my brain.

[Abalieno]

quote:Originally posted by dav:
<STRONG>I wish people would say what they want without making it like "the other crap you do is worthless, why aren't you doing what I want."</STRONG>

I haven't said that.

But when you have limited resources you ought to make choices. I'm just saying that focusing would be better welcomed than diverting the attention to other parts.

Creating a "human" or "goblin" mode to mirror the "dwarf fortress" one would take a lot of time if you aim for the same depth. At the same time these would be variations on a theme, that do not really add to the depth or polish of one. This is why I wrote about "incremental value".

You can add a number of sidetracks, and I'm absolutely sure that they would be very cool, but they would still require a lot of time, while taking away from all that is planned for the "main" game.

What we love as player? Be honest. New features, new objects, new professions, new specializations, new units, bugfixing and so on. New gameplay occasions, better control, more depth and polish.

I wish "dwarf fortress" would still get the priority, while the rest continues to move on, but without shifting the main focus. I think the rest of the game could grow around "dwarf fortress", instead of replacing it.

[ September 14, 2006: Message edited by: Abalieno ]

[Fenek]

Please, oh please add re-walling ASAP. Their is Nothing like a ore vein to mess up your room design :/

[ September 14, 2006: Message edited by: Fenek ]

[lachek]

I, for one, love the world building aspect of Dwarf Fortress. If the focus of the game was strictly on the Dwarf Fortress mode, then the sense of wonder and anticipation one gets by building a world for 30 minutes in the beginning of the game is kind of wasted. The Adventurer mode and the alternative Fortress modes are great for populating the world with more and more custom-made "stuff" that will affect your future gameplay in other modes, and I think that aspect definitely adds depth. Moreover, it adds a method of customizing the gameworld and making the game "yours", much like your neighbourhood in the Sims.

Keep up the great work, Toady. I'm sure you're on the right track.

[bbb]

i've been using statues so far to rewall... BUT no idea how it stand up to flood... you can hinge doors off statues and limit room boundary

[imsabbel]

quote:Originally posted by dav:
<STRONG>No, of course not, but "incremental value"?  It just sounds like cost-benefit-analysis to me, except that the cost is Toady's (unless you're donating).  It just sounded weird.  I guess too many threads of "is FFXXIIF worth it??!!??" have gotten to my brain.</STRONG>

Its a free game, but a) toady is still asking for donations, and b) ones time is not worthless.

So increasing the value of the game might help toady get more donations and will playing the game a more rewarding waste of valuable time.
(in that line, a time compression, or "run as fast as the cpu allows" mode would be nice. I mean if i want to micromanage i can still pause, but after work i hesitate starting DF because there may be an hour downtime till its spring again or something.

[RPB]

Adding human and goblin stuff wouldn't necessarily take that long, as it would mostly be running off the same base as the dwarf mode. Human towns would probably have to wait for re-walling in dwarf mode, though, since they would involve building aboveground.

There's also an issue of not just how much depth there is but also how wide the gameplay is. Making dwarf mode deeper is cool but that means it takes more time for players to get into it that deep. Making other modes means any player can drop right in and play those new things. If you just lost your fortress to demons, instead of playing through reclaim/rebuilding a new fortress from scratch to get to that point again, you can just start playing a goblin fortress and get a fresh experience right from the start. That's not necessarily true if you just keep adding things to dwarf mode to make it stay interesting for longer.

[Abalieno]

quote:Making dwarf mode deeper is cool but that means it takes more time for players to get into it that deep.

Most of the features planned don't add "depth" in the sense that they came late in the game.

Something like prioritizing jobs, specialized stockpiles, rewalling, fire and so on. These are all features that you would play with right away.

[phorteetoo]

Why you gotta be tryin' to mess with his mojo?

Seriously, how about we just forget the "pressure" thing and just let him code whatever he feels like coding.

Not one portion of the game is a dissapointment, so it's rather hard to argue with his development methods and goals.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by phorteetoo:
<STRONG>Why you gotta be tryin' to mess with his mojo?
</STRONG>

This man has both the proper idea AND the proper phrasing.

Toady knows what's best.  Occasionally a stray idea will tickle his fancy, and of course he'll handle any bugs as fast as wizard lightning.  But trying to pressure him is like trying to cage a songbird.  It's mean