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Author Topic: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess  (Read 1373 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 12:56:14 pm »

This video is awesome.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/22/budget-2010-vat-rise-osborne

Even Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, is shaking his head in shame.
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palsch

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 01:02:40 pm »

Clegg really looked like had something unpleasantly large stuck somewhere uncomfortable when the VAT hike was announced.
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ed boy

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 01:26:38 pm »

This whole problem stems from the fact that people are greedy and short-sighted.

The greediness itself isn't a problem: In fact, it's quite often a good thing.

The bad thing is that people are short-sighted in their greed.

Labour appealed to this, and look where it did not fare well for us. The sheer size of the pile of shit gordon brown left us in boggles the mind. Officially, national debt stands at roughly £30,000 per household. However, labour did a lot of borrowing in other forms that don't count as national debt. If you inlcude these, national debt is £90,000 per household. (for you yanks, that's $44,376 and $133,128 respectively).

The coalition government has inherited this, and now they have to deal with it.

THe country, however, is filled with people who are very short-sighted in their greed. They don't realise that the years of prosperity that they've been enjoying so far are unsustainable, and this cut has effectively been brought upon them by labour. Instead, they blame it on the ones who are bringing the bad news.
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Pathos

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 01:34:15 pm »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/22/budget-2010-vat-rise-osborne

Even Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, is shaking his head in shame.

He looks so damn depressed. It looks like he wasn't told of ANY of it.

God damn, George Osbourne talks so much shit.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 01:37:00 pm »

Well, for everyone who isn't ridiculously rich, we're fucked. Lib Dems have sold out to get their proportional representation (LOL YEAH RIGHT AS IF THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN), and this has just hamstringed all benefits. Nevermind the massive unemployment from public sector cuts, lack of proportional taxation (this is taxation across the board? Good fucking job) etc etc.

Fucking ridiculous.

To everyone who voted Tory: You're an idiot.
Fuck, yes. The Tories are cutting our benefits, increasing taxes - they're EVIL!!!!11! etc.

Because it's so nice to spend more than you earn, and then blame the sensible guy who tries to fix the budget, because, you know, you can't live as comfortably as before.
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Pathos

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 01:57:40 pm »

Fuck, yes. The Tories are cutting our benefits, increasing taxes - they're EVIL!!!!11! etc.

Because it's so nice to spend more than you earn, and then blame the sensible guy who tries to fix the budget, because, you know, you can't live as comfortably as before.

Because people living in terrible conditions is perfectly fine (who cares about children, really?) as long as we get rid of the deficit quickly. Man, I'm glad the Tories are so progressive and not Thatcherite at all.

Yeah, it's gonna be fine when we have homeless people walking the streets because the Tories cut all homeless shelter budgets. Yeah, it's fine even when more people become homeless due to other budget costs.

Honestly? These changes won't affect me a great deal (only the VAT increase will), but they will fuck over a great deal of the British population. Human suffering is fine, though, as long as we get rid of the debts.
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ed boy

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2010, 02:28:39 pm »

The debts are going to have to be cut one way or another. The reasoning behind this is as such:

A country's economic status will, if left to its own devices, fluctuate up and down, while following a trend rate. This will cause the general standard of living in the country to flucutate up and down in accordance.

One of the most important things that a modern government does is to try and remove these flucutations. If these fluctuations can be removed, then people can be more confident about the future, so they will be more willing to invest in the future, so the trend rate of growth in the country will increase. This is desireable.

In order to do this, the government will, in theory, borrow and spend when the economy is below the trend rate, and tax and cut when the economy is above the trend rate. That is the theory. In practice, however, this does not happen.

Whomoever is in power will want to stay in power. They will therefore try to make the general public happy with their performance. Since people are greedy, and short-sighted in their greed, they must provide a short-term benefit to the people to gain votes.

When the economy is below the trend rate, the government will be more than happy to borrow and spend - It increases the standard of living in the country, which makes them popular and more likely to stay in power. It also create the illusion that their policies are more successful than they actually are. They can justify it, by saying that they will pay for this debt when the economy is doing better.

This is not often the case. When it comes time to pay it back, people are very reluctant. Paying it back means that people will have to undergo a lower quality of life than they would be able to achieve otherwise. Due to short-sightedness, people forget that the times of prosperity they previously enjoyed were because they would have to start paying it back.

When labour come into power, they were due to start paying back the debt that had accumulated. But they did not. They borrowed more and more, and as a result, the quality of life did increase, and labour were seen by many as a very effective governmental party. People did not realise that they would have to lower their standards of living, and a great many still do.

It's true that many people will be hit hard by the new budget, and the poorest most of all, but this is only because the labour government brought them so far above the sustainable level. If labour had not brought these people above the sustainable level of living, then they would not have to come down, and indeed their long-term standard of living would be higher.

Of course, people are short-sighted, and the politicians manipulate that. No doubt, in five years time, there will be many labour MPs showcasing the drop in quality of life in the coming years as 'proof' that they are the best party, and try to use that to be elected.

The really sad thing is that lots of people will fall for it, and indeed many people have fallen for similar things in the past.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2010, 02:34:41 pm »

THERE WILL BE VAT ON BOOKS.
I MUST HAVE HIS BLOOOOOOOOOD.
Nope.
In that case he can do whatever he damn well likes. I'm going back to my sci-fi classics.
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palsch

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Re: UK Emergency Budget = A Mess
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 09:46:13 pm »

Of course, people are short-sighted, and the politicians manipulate that. No doubt, in five years time, there will be many labour MPs showcasing the drop in quality of life in the coming years as 'proof' that they are the best party, and try to use that to be elected.

The really sad thing is that lots of people will fall for it, and indeed many people have fallen for similar things in the past.
The thing is, if Labour argue that the Tory budget hurt the poor excessively they won't be wrong.

We did need a stringent budget that reduced the deficit and encouraged growth. This budget, potentially, does this. And I do disagree with people who think that it is short sighted because this is a fairly pro-grown, private sector friendly budget. But it is neither particularly effectively or gentle.

As far as growth is concerned, it's a fairly middle of the road budget. I'd need to wait to see how some of the regional funds work, but my money isn't on it actually encouraging much growth beyond the more moderate of their projections. Very simply, they are doing too much damage at the lower levels for encouraging small businesses (their main target) to work. Small businesses tend to rely on small customers, and hurting benefits and low income groups doesn't work there.

As for hitting low incomes groups, there are few ways they could hurt them more than the combined benefit and VAT hit, along with the complete placebo of the income tax allowance increase. Add in the public sector pay freeze and it's getting ugly. There are currently more than six million public sector workers in the UK, just under 10% of the population. I'm not saying reform isn't a good idea (and some of their plans were pretty good sense), but this is an axe where a scalpel was needed. It's only going to make the wound worse.

Notably the Lib Dems were offering a pro-grown, private sector set of plans of their own. The current leadership are of a libertarian bent (all of a Orange Book persuasion) but also have their ties to the social democrats within the party, so having at least some grounding in the social justice and welfare economics of that political wing. Notably David Laws, now resigned, was the originally designated axeman for the coalition because of his long standing and public views on the importance of a free market for growth, but also his authority within the more socially minded groups of the Lib Dems.

Because of the social democratic side of the party, they had a lot more gentle plans for the public sector and lower income levels, and what was frankly a more pragmatic and less ideological set of plans. The willingness to engage in public sector works when that makes sense and private sector when that makes sense is exactly what is needed. The Tories swing things far too far in the direction of the private, neglecting the public. The Libs, thanks to their political schizophrenia, had a far better balance. Hopefully some more of that can assert itself in the near and mid-term future.
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