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[Jeoshua]

Okay, so if I were to build the piston with a ring of retractable bridges around it at z-3, they won't hold the piston up when I collapse the support., but when the magma is teleported to the top of the piston, the magma from the 3 z deep temporary reservior will fill 3 floors initially, up to the top access area of where the piston used to be? And then the bridges stop the flow form falling back?

I'm thinking a repeating reservoir might not be the best way to go, but rather just a really big and very deep temporary reservoir moving up a 10x10x10 chunk of magma one time.   Then I'll use THAT as the reservoir.  Seriously, 7000 magma should be good enough for any project I can imagine.

[schussel]

well you need to take the height in account to actually seal the "catching tank" but yes you are correct ...

and 7000 magma well are actualle 1000 full tiles covered .. ^^well ok that would be much

but forreal 10 z-level of magma? are you planning for a magma launcher or something to erradicate everything in the kinds of boatmurdered?^^

[Jeoshua]

No, I'm just planning on never having to run out.  Never know when you need magma for something.

[schussel]

well if you plan clever you can do with 100units for a middle-sized forge and pottery room if you set the shops efficiently and near the basin rest would be around 500 units for trap purposes

but 7k well you're well dwarfish in any way i bow to thee^^

[Jeoshua]

Let's see... 600 magma for forges and such... About twice much for a magma moat flanking my 1z knock-em-down walkway...  My dwarfish sensibilities are tingling.

[Kaos]

Then we have a variant with moving fortress parts. This version is less of a "piston" and more of a mobile magma pipe. (one that can be used directly with the magma sea.)

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In the first step, the magma piston is raised and the bridge is retracted. The piston is lowered into the sea in step two and the piston bridge is closed.
In step three the piston raises and waits for the sea to recharge. Once it has, the bridge retracts returning to step one and the process repeats.

With a dwarfputer and knowledge of the sea's recharge rate, this process could be completely automated.

What do you mean by "moving fortress parts" it seems from your post that you are moving at will the entire stone piston... how do you exactly do that???
it can be moved down by cave-in but how does it go up???
after it goes up how do you automatically reattach it to a support if supports deconstruct?? what does support it?
please explain....

[Shinziril]

Moving fortress parts are something that has not been implemented yet, but is supposed to be implemented eventually.  That is a theoretical piston method for when they are implemented. 

[krenshala]

well you need to take the height in account to actually seal the "catching tank" but yes you are correct ...

and 7000 magma well are actualle 1000 full tiles covered .. ^^well ok that would be much

but forreal 10 z-level of magma? are you planning for a magma launcher or something to erradicate everything in the kinds of boatmurdered?^^

1000 full tiles is only a 40x25 (or 10x100, 20x50, 31x33 with 23 tiles extra or filled in, etc) area.

[rmin]

Could anyone explain in detail how the repeatable version works? It mentions obsidian, is that really necessary? I also looked at the provided map, however it's been some time since I used the unmodified DF without custom tileset and can't really understand what I see there. So would anyone be so kind and provide a guide on what to do? That would be great.

[Kaos]

Could anyone explain in detail how the repeatable version works? It mentions obsidian, is that really necessary? I also looked at the provided map, however it's been some time since I used the unmodified DF without custom tileset and can't really understand what I see there. So would anyone be so kind and provide a guide on what to do? That would be great.

Read this:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Flow#Fluids_under_pressure_aka._Teleportation
I expanded that part in order to better explain the principle behind the piston method....

As I understand it, Side View:

Top View:

x, v = floor that get caved-in
B = bridge
P = Presure Plate
H, G = Hatch
C = Channel last

Step 1: container with water on top, closed by bridge
carve the piston, notice the support at the bottom
in z-1 you have to channel everything in white and leave the "c" for last
floor rings cave-in

Step 2: deconstruct support,
piston caves-in, gets supported by the floor made by the wall were the support was
3x3 magma gets teleported to top of piston

Step 3: the bridges "Bv" should be open by now,
gravity sets in, magma spreads down,
here there are two options, it depends on where do you want the magma to go, up or down....
if it's down you use gravity, the pressure plate "P" can be set to 2 or 1 magma and the it closes hatch "G" ("H" on the top view), then you direct it wherever you want or store it nearby....
if it's up, you need a pump, you can substitute the appropriate tiles with the scheme at the bottom.... notice you keep the pressure plate to trigger the pump.

Step 4: repeat, here you open the top water container bridge, water falls on the magma (can be triggered by the pressure plate too), creates obsidian, so you replace the levels that felt down... here I did it simplistic, only one z-layer falls, but it can be more, that's why they pump magma up, and do several runs to replace each layer....
next, you set up the support, and dig out the bottom (marked with "x"), do not dig the last tile before placing the support... and you're ready to go...
well maybe you should refill the water container too....

Now, if the ultimate purpose of this is getting magma from the bottom to the top, without pumps.... wouldn't it be better to make an artificial magma pipe?? like this:

It follows the same principle,
Step 1: carve a cylinder, 3x3 with 1x1 in the middle open, place support at the bottom, let magma in, seal the chamber
Step 2: release support, the ones in the center stay at the bottom, the ring around the solid part of the cylinder teleports to top...
Step 3, magma spreads down the only way, the hole in the middle, and fills it....

Now, it probably happens so fast that it's going to seem like the magma is being pressured up through the hole in the middle, since the cistern at the bottom is sealed it's what should happen if DF fortress followed regular fluid physics.... this one gets a more natural feel...

if you open the cistern at the bottom so new magma flows in, would the one in the tube stay there? if so if you dig a tunnel from any z-level in the tube, would you have a continuous flow like a natural magma pipe?? obviously I haven't tested it... =D

[Reelyanoob]

Could anyone explain in detail how the repeatable version works? It mentions obsidian, is that really necessary? I also looked at the provided map, however it's been some time since I used the unmodified DF without custom tileset and can't really understand what I see there. So would anyone be so kind and provide a guide on what to do? That would be great.

The obsidian is cast on top to re-create the piston back to the original height. So you build an obsidian caster above the piston, and dig out the bottom of the cistern again each time to refill it with magma from the magma sea. This is integral to the "repeatability". It should be possible to automate the recasting with some clever timing or mechanisms. I don't know how much has been done on this. Maybe raising bridges on the side of the piston would be better than retracting ones for casting purposes?

The bit you dig out would be normal rock for many repetitions, but eventually the piston would be solid obsidian if you used it enough.

EDIT : real quick version of the theory for a very small example, how I would build one to pull magma up 2 levels.

dig a cistern say 5x5 next to the magma source, with a magma-safe floodgate. Link this up to a lever.
The piston should be shaped to fit the cistern, but leave a ring 1-around and start right above the magma, e.g 3x3, so you channel rings sized 5x5 from the top to bottom. Here's a side-view :-

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###WWW### W = Water held up by retracting bridge.
##B S B## S = Support, B = Raising bridge
##~PPP~## ~ = channel
##~PPP~## P = Piston
mFMMMMMD  M = Magma, F = floodgate, D = Locked door, m = Magma sea

When the support is released, the piston falls 1-z-level and pushes all the Magma up 2-z-levels, it is held into the shape of the piston by the raising bridges (walls would work here, but would stick to the new part of piston).

Most magma would be pumped or flow out of the top chamber, to a top reservoir (by lowering a single 1x1 setion of raisable bridge, leaving 2-3 Magma per square, then the bridge is raised again, some water is dumped from above to cast to obsidian. Dwarves now must rebuild the support and link it to the lever, while the door down below is unlocked and the 3x3 area is dig out to refill with magma, maybe have a garbage dump just outside the door if I want to keep the stones.

[Reelyanoob]

if you open the cistern at the bottom so new magma flows in, would the one in the tube stay there? if so if you dig a tunnel from any z-level in the tube, would you have a continuous flow like a natural magma pipe?? obviously I haven't tested it... =D

Unfortunately I think new magma won't flow in then. You could get the same effect by dumping magma collected another way down a basic tube, and that version has the advantage that you can pre-install floodgates on every level, for easy plumbing.

A Piston with a bigger cavity would be interesting - you could live in there and have a piston ring around the whole fortress. Pull the support and any creatures standing there get cave-in'd and are caught in an instant in 5-z-level deep lava moat. Pull another lever and it's a drowning trap with chance of obsidian. Could be a versatile defence set-up. Especially if you set it up so flyers have to path though the moat area.

[rmin]

@Kaos on z-5, that thing next to the 7, is that the floodgate? Is that the support, so when you open it, it disappears and thus the piston goes down? And what is the Bv for on z-2? It's only there on the first step, is it to get the dwarves in the middle?

Thanks for the pictures, makes it a lot clearer

[Kaos]

@Kaos on z-5, that thing next to the 7, is that the floodgate? Is that the support, so when you open it, it disappears and thus the piston goes down? And what is the Bv for on z-2? It's only there on the first step, is it to get the dwarves in the middle?

Thanks for the pictures, makes it a lot clearer

Yes, the thing a the bottom should be a support, the "Bv" is a "B" = bridge and the "v" is to signal that that piece of floor with the dotted line has to be caved-in, and yes it's me leaving some scaffolding behind in so they are able to get to dig in the middle, I forgot to erase it.... it shouldn't be necessary anyway, since that area should be dug before the ring cave-in anyways....

I dug only the minimum necessary to illustrate what's really needed for it to work, notice two things also:
* The ring that caves-in and becomes empty space, has a tile in each corner (look at z-2 or z-3 top view) , that could be dug out if you want a proper continuous ring, I used to demonstrate that diagonals don't offer support.
* How the magma containment bridges at z-3 retract in a circular pattern, this was done so I need less bridges than say, digging to the top, left, right, bottom and make a 3x2 bridge with a 3x1 anchor...
* the piston has a "point", the natural wall at z-2 in the middle of the piston... it's only there to demonstrate that you don't need to dig that out to remove support for the top-most floor that will start the cave-in sequence.... and it kind of looks cool, doesn't it....
* I think there's a way to place the support on top, attached to that point, and attached to the ceiling, the ceiling could be a down stair and it would let water out..... the problem, the support materials would probably get encased in obsidian when you recast..... you'll probably be able to dig them out at the bottom though.... that wouldn't be efficient... the best would be to trigger the support, get back the materials and rebuild it.....
* the same with the support in the bottom to get the materials you'll have to drain that on tile either by pumping or gravity, let your dwarf enter, grab the material, rebuild the support, dig the piston base, get out, re-flood the chamber with magma, and repeat
is there any other place where you could place the support with less work to get the materials back??

[Kaos]

if you open the cistern at the bottom so new magma flows in, would the one in the tube stay there? if so if you dig a tunnel from any z-level in the tube, would you have a continuous flow like a natural magma pipe?? obviously I haven't tested it... =D

Unfortunately I think new magma won't flow in then. You could get the same effect by dumping magma collected another way down a basic tube, and that version has the advantage that you can pre-install floodgates on every level, for easy plumbing.

A Piston with a bigger cavity would be interesting - you could live in there and have a piston ring around the whole fortress. Pull the support and any creatures standing there get cave-in'd and are caught in an instant in 5-z-level deep lava moat. Pull another lever and it's a drowning trap with chance of obsidian. Could be a versatile defence set-up. Especially if you set it up so flyers have to path though the moat area.

I don't get it.... what's the difference between this:

and a natural magma pipe (magma pool) or a volcano???.... aren't those basically a hole all the way down to a magma sea? if a magma pipe and a volcano ( a pipe open to the surface ) refill themselves, from where? the magma sea I assume... so there must be some sort of flow up?

Imagine the image is a natural magma pipe, if I were to build an aqueduct  at any z-level to the side of it, the aqueduct would fill with magma.... what magma? the top-most magma would teleport to the open space as described in flow at the wiki, so the pipe would start depleting from the top to the z-level above where the aqueduct is.... it would slowly refill according to the wiki... but how? how does magma flow work to refill pipes??

This is what would happen if I dig an aqueduct at the side....

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               ▒7▒ ▒      ▒~▒ ▒
  Before       ▒7▒ ▒      ▒~▒ ▒       ≈   flowing fluid
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               ▒ ▒ ▒      ▒ ▒ ▒
  After        ▒ ▒ ▒      ▒ ▒ ▒       ≈   flowing fluid
               ▒777▒      ▒~≈≈▒       ~   non-flowing fluid
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