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[jei]

Why haddn't I seen this ingenious invention BEFORE I constructed 600 pumps for the obsidian monolith? *facepalm*

I believe this is one of the greatest dwarven inventions in creation, on par with the perpetual engine and the demon webber-trapper.

Pray tell, what is the demon webber-trapper? Search revealed naught.

GCS shooting webs? Wouldn't a demon just spit something back at it and thus kill it in a moment?
Same for FBs...

[monk12]

Why haddn't I seen this ingenious invention BEFORE I constructed 600 pumps for the obsidian monolith? *facepalm*

I believe this is one of the greatest dwarven inventions in creation, on par with the perpetual engine and the demon webber-trapper.

Pray tell, what is the demon webber-trapper? Search revealed naught.

GCS shooting webs? Wouldn't a demon just spit something back at it and thus kill it in a moment?
Same for FBs...

It involves having a metric fuckton of GCS shooting webs at demons through fortifications. The demons get webbed while standing on top of a cage trap, and are undone. I don't recall whether there was any cleverness to make Fire Demons not shoot back or if it just never came up, and I cannot find the thread either. My search fu is weak.

[albatross]

This thread is witchcraft. I'll stick to my magma pumps thanks. Armok have mercy on your souls. Burn the OP.

[The Phoenixian]

But that would require magma and would be far too frivolous to dedicate an entire set of pump stacks to. [/deadpan]

*Ahem*

In the interest of designing things for the sole sake of designing things I have had the idea of "future prepping" the magma piston.

First with realistic fluid displacement:

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▒▒...............▒▒
▒▒▒.■...■.■...■.▒▒▒
▒▒▒.■...■.■...■.▒▒▒ catch basin
▒▒▒.■■■■■.■■■■■.▒▒▒
▒▒..■■■■■.■■■■■..▒▒ main shaft
▒▒..■■■■■.■■■■■..▒▒
▒▒.■■■■■■.■■■■■■.▒▒ leading flange (optional)
▒▒...............▒▒
▒▒▒.............▒▒▒
▒▒▒7777777777777▒▒▒
▒▒▒7777777777777▒▒▒  main cistern
▒▒▒7777777777777▒▒▒
▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
When the piston falls, the walls (or flange) are flush with the cistern's sides leaving the magma with it's only path out through the vent where it can be caught in the catch basin.

In order to actually get a reasonable amount of magma to travel up the pipe, the piston should either have a "leading flange" to connect with a wider cistern than the whole piston's main shaft (not repeatable without moving fortress parts) or the cistern should be multiple z levels high (repeatable)

(Incidentally, when this falls, it should make beautiful magma geysers)



Then we have a variant with moving fortress parts. This version is less of a "piston" and more of a mobile magma pipe. (one that can be used directly with the magma sea.)

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▒.....1.....▒▒▒▒.....2.....▒▒▒▒.....3.....▒▒▒▒.....1.....▒▒▒▒.....2.....▒▒▒▒.....3.....▒
▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒▒▒▒...........▒▒▒▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒▒▒▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒▒▒▒...........▒▒▒▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒...........▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒...........▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■■■■■■■■■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒
▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■.......■.▒▒▒▒.■7bridge■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒▒▒▒.■7777777■.▒▒▒▒.■7bridge■.▒
777777777777▒▒▒▒7■7777777■7▒▒▒▒3211...1123▒▒▒▒77777777777▒▒▒▒7■7777777■7▒▒▒▒3211...1123▒
77777777777777777■7bridge■777777777777777777777777777777777777■7bridge■77777777777777777

In the first step, the magma piston is raised and the bridge is retracted. The piston is lowered into the sea in step two and the piston bridge is closed.
In step three the piston raises and waits for the sea to recharge. Once it has, the bridge retracts returning to step one and the process repeats.

With a dwarfputer and knowledge of the sea's recharge rate, this process could be completely automated.

[Narmio]

I just wanted to say thanks, I just pulled this off, moved an 11x11x1 square of magma up 70 z-levels, all went off without a hitch.  Only needed 16 bauxite to make the bridges surrounding it, and about a year with just three miners and three masons getting everything set up.  The hardest bit was finding an 11x11 block that dodged all the caverns!  Digging out a "halo" of floor tiles above the piston and sending it crashing down into the magma to remove all the surrounding floors was a genius idea.  Now I have 16 magma workshops mere tiles away from my fortress centre!  Hooray!

[decius]

EDIT: Now with repeatability!

• Make sure the whole thing is subteranean if your map freezes. My map was frozen half the year and it was a massive pain in the ass, as the obsidian caster will ice up.
• Don't try and cast with a 2/7 layer on top of a 7/7. The water doesnt all fall together, and as the obsidian sinks it throws magma everywhere and the obsidian will not form a flat surface, ruining your piston

Anyway thats my contribution to dwarven science. Hopefully it will be used to bring magma to dwarves in need everywhere.

Very nice work, but couldn't ice be used just as well? Maybe use floodgates to form and drop an entire ice column down... 
This might be an interesting science project.

Sir, if you demonstrate a way to pump magma using only ice, you will have won Dwarf Fortress.[/list]

[WrathNail]

The hardest bit was finding an 11x11 block that dodged all the caverns!

Agreed. Though a single cavern in between is manageable, it will still the delay the usefulness of the projects since you have to spend more magma and time recreating the pillar the first couple of runs.

[decius]

It would seem to me that you could create as large a block as needed by causing a cavein into the cavern. You would just have to go up an additonal number of z-levels...

Wait, if

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XXXXX
 XXXXX
  X 
  X 
  X 
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MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
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XXXXXXX
Becomes

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  M
  M
  M
 MMMMM
 MMMMM
 MMMMM
 XXXXX
 XXXXX
 MXMMM 
 MXMMM
MMXMMMM 
MXXXXXM
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Then all you need to penetrate a cavern X z-levels deep is to make the piston and cylinder an additional X levels tall. If you collapse the piston into the cavern first, you don't even need to make the cylinder deeper, only the piston.

I think I can do this straight into the magma sea, by causing the piston to have a projection that fits a notch; The bottom of the piston will not hit the bottom of the sea. I think it also has the potential to be usable multiple times without making any obsidan, but for less height each time.

[schussel]

just tried it on my 100zlvl lower magmasource and it worked like a charme .. thanks alot op ..

[The_Countess]

i was reading this brilliant thread, and heard people talk about dodging caverns and such.

then I thought... what if you filled the holes(aka caverns) in the 'piston' with water.

then on the first (few) drops) the magma spawns on top of it, drops down and forms obsidian, filling in the hole.
you could do pistons as big as you liked almost anywhere you liked as long as there was a continues connection of rock through every cavern (they dont even have to be directly below each other i think).

a bit more labour intensive, and you lose some magma on top on the first few drop (which i guess could cause some problems with precisely measured out reservoirs for the repeating action, which means you'd have to fill those from a main holding tank for example)

i haven't quite figured out how to construct a holding tank for the water without it also acting as a support but i think a slightly larger cylinder there to accommodate the bulge of the added walls should/could work.
and I'm not sure if you can fill in the last z-level of empty space.(even if you cant... I think that could be dealt with once it reaches the lowest levels, even if it does remove some units of lava... just make a deeper cistern to compensate)

and there you have it.. my first post here.
hope i didn't make too much of fool out of myself.

edit : oke just caving it in might be a lot simpler.

[Iraxius]

This is my first post on the forums, and I have a distinct lack of megaprojects under my belt, so I might be missing something obvious.  I believe I understand the piston part of this, but I am not sure how bridges hold water above the displaced magma which is then used to cast obsidian.  Can someone explain this?

[NecroRebel]

This is my first post on the forums, and I have a distinct lack of megaprojects under my belt, so I might be missing something obvious.  I believe I understand the piston part of this, but I am not sure how bridges hold water above the displaced magma which is then used to cast obsidian.  Can someone explain this?

Have you looked at the Bravebridged map posted in the OP? Another link to it here if you need it. That shows a repeating piston design, though it's a bit hard to tell what it does if you don't know what you're looking at.

Anyway, on that map on level 174, there's a structure with 2 bridges, with a pump off to the east (this point of interest is marked "Old obsidian caster"). It's stoppered up by ice at the moment, but when it thawed, if the pump was run, water would flow out onto the bridges and be held there. A lever is linked to the bridges, and when pulled, those bridges retract and disappear, allowing the water to fall straight downwards. These bridges can be any distance above the top of the piston, though having a clear z-level between them and the piston is probably a good idea so you can do other work in there.

If you go a few levels down from that (PoI marked "Magma removal thing). At the north end of that you'll see a screw pump, separated from the magma piston device by some walls. That pump is part of a pump stack that, ultimately draws from level 167, which is the lowest level magma will be on after the piston is dropped. After the piston is dropped, the pump stack is run, drawing a specific amount of magma out of the piston space, so that there is exactly 2/7 magma on every square of the piston's top. The pump stack is then deactivated, the lever activating the water bridges is pulled, and water falls down. When the water hits the 2/7 magma, both the water and magma disappear to form obsidian. The process is then repeated twice more.



The most important part is probably that the repeating design requires that you put the support at the bottom of the piston, not at the top as the pictures show. If you go to the "Magma cistern" point of interest on the map at level 17, you can see a single tile of magma that is darker red. This indicates that there is a building there, specifically the support. It must sit on some floors that are invisible in the magma. Those floors would get annihilated when the piston fell on them.

The bridges really just need to be above the magma, with open space beneath. When a bridge is retracted or raised, it doesn't fling water anywhere, so any water on the parts that just simply disappear just simply falls straight down. So, there's not really much to explain.

[Iraxius]

I get the part about pumping magma out to 2/7 depth, and then having water dropped onto it from above.  I guess my question more specifically was, what's preventing the water from simply flowing off the bridges once it's pumped up there?  Or do you simply have to pump it and then drop it quickly before it evaporates?

Edit: Okay actually I just noticed a door up there, which means the outer edge is walls, not part of the bridge.  I'm blind.  Sorry.

[Jeoshua]

Okay I realize this is an aggregious necro, but I have read this entire thread and am still yet to understand the floorplan of a magma piston.  The piston itself makes sense enough, and the "dropping a floor" bit is genius.  But seriously, could someone post a floor plan of the first few top Z-levels? Or a Quickfort file or something? Because I am just not understanding how to keep the magma in

[schussel]

ihats what the bridges or hatches are for - they seal the top reservoir .. i suggest you try it out by following the first post in detail .. its actually quite easy

you need to calculate the wanted depth of the reservoir above and below, so that your reservoir on top will be filled enough

fe 10*10 2level depth = (100*2 1400 units magma tank below

so above it would fill a same14*14 for about 1 zlevel (200*7 units +-) ... but you wil need to set the top part 2 levels above the ring
remember that you will need at least +4 on length and width dimensions above for making the piston work .. as bridges/and or hatches need a base to seal the reservoir (outer rock ring)

bridges and hatches wont hold the piston at all as plain rock would do when caving in (so they are needed) imagine them as a rubber seal on todays movable machine parts

just be aware that your top of the piston before launch need to be at least as many level above the bridge/hatch-ring as the filled reservoir below is deep so its a clean close after the whole block was caved ..

if you reread the thread again there was a movie post of how it works in action i think somewhere in the first posts

but the first post ewikll clear it if you try it out one time .. even if with less volume on water and such