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[nenjin]

This is actually perfect example of trolling. Saying someone "deserves it" and that anonimity makes it okay. There is no reason to bully someone, whether or not they are an "annoying crybaby", which I personally do not think Deathworks was being.

Nor do I. But I appreciate Graelkin's point. People have a hard time hearing how others really feel on the Internet, especially when that feeling might be "oh just shut the fuck up." Personally, I've come to cherish those rare moments of honesty.

Because really, why does anyone need to be nice to you for your own sake on the Internet? They don't. Anonymity, while being the key to being a total prick, is also the key to real honesty. I've learned a ton about myself as a person and as a personality thanks to the Internet, because some just straight up told me how I was seen. And they didn't do it nicely. But that's why it stuck. That's why it became a lesson. And sure, some of those people are assholes and were just being assholes...but many of them were not.

So I draw a pretty steep distinction between 'bullying' 'trolling' and 'being brutally honest.'

Accusing someone of trolling is often just an admission that you can't handle what's being said to you, or about you. Really trolling? Really trolling is walking into a random forum and posting "you're all fags." THAT'S trolling. All this wishy washy 'trolling is when you hurt someone's feelings' wah wah wah is just a defense, trying to cast someone making you feel bad in a negative light. People need to grow a set of reproductive organs, and a spine, and save the "ur trolling me" comments for the people that really deserve them, and try actually learning something from the rest.

If the Internet is "high school x5", then people have some serious growing up to do.

Maybe, maybe not. If you stick ~30 adults of totally different backgrounds in a room, lock them in there and have them talk about their opinions for 2 hours a day, guess what, it looks like the Internet. People are dicks. People use shame and anger to make a point. Some stay out of it. Some rise above it. That's practically what high school is, forced socialization. The only difference is we CHOOSE to be here.

Again, it's completely foolish and ignorant to think that if people see your behavior as something to bully you about, then you must deserve it.

It could be ignorant to think you DON'T deserve something too, even when you totally do. No one likes being called out, especially when the person calling you out is RIGHT.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Ageism is pretty ignorant, if you ask me. But you didn't, so it doesn't matter.

Just a little stereotype, don't get too bothered by it. But case-in-point, see the recent explosion of SA trolls.

You guys can act as haughty as you like, but nobody on this forum knows what anybody else looks like in real life, or what their personal habits are, and we only know about their political and religious views in a few cases. If people are 'bulliyng' you here, it's because of your personality on the forum.

I don't think it's "haughty" but due to the community, and yes actual "community", we do know what other's look like. We message each other on steam and organize games, chat on IRC/MSN/AIM, call one another on skype.

We have an actual community because we don't resort to acting like douchebags behind a facade of anonymity.

[Grakelin]

If you think you don't deserve to be treated poorly for having an unpleasant personality, you're going to run into a lot of conflict in your life.

The vast majority of the people on this forum aren't in the 'Pictures of Ourselves' thread, either.

[Footkerchief]

If you think you don't deserve to be treated poorly for having an unpleasant personality, you're going to run into a lot of conflict in your life.

Conflict that you'd be happy to provide, I take it.

[Bandages]

Well.. I do act like myself on these forums, maybe a bit more normal here than real life, but w/e. I think I'm a likable enough bloke, and I certainly don't dislike anyone here on the forums, because I generally see the "trolling" that goes on as more of a way for people to joke around with a little dickery.

I don't really like picking on people who don't "deserve" it though. I also don't exactly know what the criteria is for "deserving" it either, so I probably won't be trolling any time soon.

[nenjin]

Conflict that you'd be happy to provide, I take it.

See, now is that trolling, being a dick...or sending a message is a less than cuddly way? Is he picking on Graelkin, does Graelkin deserve it for what he's said?

Trolling is utterly in the eye of the beholder, because everyone thinks they're saying something that needs to be said.

[ChairmanPoo]

I tend not to post pictures of myself around. I think it's not very cautious to do so...

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Well, I was referring to bullying in the context of Armok as it seems that in random threads where he not even participated, people will start talking about him, and usually in a negative fashion. And I wonder how he made it a valid option to modify his avatar without his consent and use it to mock him?

I am not talking about everyone loving each other, and I am not opposed to controversial debate, and while I recommend that people do not resort to insults, I can understand that tempers may go up within a discussion. I am talking about unwarranted dragging up and harassing, of which Armok does indeed seem to be the target here on the forums.

Deathworks

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Consider attempting to cyberbully somone you don't know in person. It would be very difficult, if not outright impossible. In high school, you are reqired by federal law to be in a building with hundreds of other hormone supercharged jerks. The potential for bullying and conflict is high enough on its own, but the now widespread idea that retaliation is just as evil as instigation raises it to a whole new level. The internet is almost the opposite. We are, by and large, on the same playing field. We have no real laws to restrict our behaivior, sans not getting banned off this forum. Thus, anyone acting like an ass will only get the same in return. As Grakelin said, we all know next to nothing about each other. Anyone who spends enough time gleaning information to get a good idea of someone else is not very likely to be a troll or extremely antagonistic. They just don't survive very long here. People like to point out things like that girl who killed herself over Facebook, but that was set up by people she knew. Anyone who is seriously emotionally harmed by the attacks of a stranger over the internet has much larger problems than said stranger.

As for fourteen year olds, around that age most males will get a temporary asshole streak. It isn't absolute, but it is common. I certainly went through it, directly after the crushing despair of thirteen.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Conflict that you'd be happy to provide, I take it.

See, now is that trolling, being a dick...or sending a message is a less than cuddly way? Is he picking on Graelkin, does Graelkin deserve it for what he's said?

Trolling is utterly in the eye of the beholder, because everyone thinks they're saying something that needs to be said.

No, I think trolling is fairly clear.

It requires intent to get an emotional response out of people or irritate them.

Honest opinion and idiocy can bug others, but it isn't trolling. There's obviously some trolling more subtle than others, such as hiding behind "hey, it's just my opinion" and freedom of speech ala Westboro Baptism Church.

Trolling or not, there's some attitudes here that aren't really conducive to healthy community...

Bullying is also against the site rules.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Okay, you get together with a group of people who share the same interest like you, for instance liking the game Dwarf Fortress. You want to share your thoughts and experiences and have a good time together with people. And all you get is insults and constant attacks. Sure, it may not be enough to warrant suicide in a mentally stable person, but it definitely does not sound like fun. And the question is, whether having fun at the expense of others (and I think that having fun is the main motivation for bullying on the internet) is really something we should endorse. I think there is a good reason why most forums have rules against harassing people.

Deathworks

[ChairmanPoo]

I like the game dwarf fortress, but the performance kills my computer

Ok, not as bad as it used to be, but still.


BTW: that reminds me: does anyone else finds reconfiguring the keys a pain in the ass?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I do not see constant attacks here. I have seen Armok bashing go on to the point where it is no longer prudent, but this is not some common trend that enters every thread.

[nenjin]

In high school, you are reqired by federal law to be in a building with hundreds of other hormone supercharged jerks. The potential for bullying and conflict is high enough on its own, but the now widespread idea that retaliation is just as evil as instigation raises it to a whole new level. The internet is almost the opposite. We are, by and large, on the same playing field.

Except that in high school, we have no concept of real consequences for our behavior. Here, there are almost no consequences. Different and yet still the same.

It requires intent to get an emotional response out of people or irritate them.

And that wasn't? (Note, I'm not saying Foot IS trolling him...but there's clear subtext there.)

Trolling or not, there's some attitudes here that aren't really conducive to healthy community...

There are attitudes every where that do that. Bay12, to me, seems to do very well in spite of them. This place in generally a lot nicer, and requires a hell of a lot less moderation given the size of the forums, than many places I frequent.

Trust me, on another board, we've been trying for years to find a set of rules that lets people discuss freely while discouraging outright dickery. We call it the "don't be a dink" rule, no personal attacks. But that's as close as we can get, and even that definition gets murky. I sort of prefer the natural selection method; those that can and will learn will remain, those that can't hack it mentally or emotional find other places to play.

And all you get is insults and constant attacks. Sure, it may not be enough to warrant suicide in a mentally stable person, but it definitely does not sound like fun.

Sounds like the standard introduction to most game forums. Again, Bay12 is better than almost every other one I've ever posted on frequently. The Relic Dawn of War 2 boards? Yeessh. They have an army of moderators over there that, up until a year ago, would lock a thread if they found anything as offensive as a mouse fart. That's the flip side of this whole trolling/whatever debate; forum nannies. That's a hell of a lot less fun, trust me.

[Huesoo]

Its seems a bunch of you where bullied in school, that sucks.