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[Toybasher]

I had finished my windows compiles on schedule, then I went to the forum, and it was down...  and it turns out it was very down, and the message database was corrupt.  So I was figuring that out and putting the repairs into motion until 11 or 12 or whenever it was.  Hopefully the forum is fine now.  Then I slept for an hour and am now back to the release checklist and am in the middle of the Linux compile.  There was something to do with dynamic linking of sound libraries this time around that I forgot to get back in touch with Baughn on that hasn't had any problems yet but which he said he might want to take a look at.  Other than that, things should proceed smoothly which would mean a release within a couple hours.  Then we can have a second release due to whatever screwup has been introduced by my release process being interrupted...

Thank you so much, glad the release is still going ok, ( its 7 PM here, need to go to bed soon, hope its released by then)

[arghy]

I've been checking 6 times a day for about a week now haha playing without undead just isent playing at all.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! right as i tried to post!

[HammerDave]

Then we can have a second release due to whatever screwup has been introduced by my release process being interrupted...

That has happened to me before.  Good luck and hope nobody bumps you at just the wrong time.

And thanks for the awesome dedication to it, sounds like you've had a couple of all nighters!

[Chattox]

I had finished my windows compiles on schedule, then I went to the forum, and it was down...  and it turns out it was very down, and the message database was corrupt.  So I was figuring that out and putting the repairs into motion until 11 or 12 or whenever it was.  Hopefully the forum is fine now.  Then I slept for an hour and am now back to the release checklist and am in the middle of the Linux compile.  There was something to do with dynamic linking of sound libraries this time around that I forgot to get back in touch with Baughn on that hasn't had any problems yet but which he said he might want to take a look at.  Other than that, things should proceed smoothly which would mean a release within a couple hours.  Then we can have a second release due to whatever screwup has been introduced by my release process being interrupted...

Awesome. I've got a big jar at home with "Toad preservation fund" stuck on the side that I add to whenever I have spare change I don't need. Once it gets to about £40-50 I'm going to donate the lot, and repeat the process when it fills again.

[slink]

I had finished my windows compiles on schedule, then I went to the forum, and it was down...  and it turns out it was very down, and the message database was corrupt.  So I was figuring that out and putting the repairs into motion until 11 or 12 or whenever it was.  Hopefully the forum is fine now.  Then I slept for an hour and am now back to the release checklist and am in the middle of the Linux compile.  There was something to do with dynamic linking of sound libraries this time around that I forgot to get back in touch with Baughn on that hasn't had any problems yet but which he said he might want to take a look at.  Other than that, things should proceed smoothly which would mean a release within a couple hours.  Then we can have a second release due to whatever screwup has been introduced by my release process being interrupted...

 

I went to the dev page first thing this morning, and saw that there was no new version yet.  I re-read the part about there being a release today unless something weird happened.  Then I went to the forum and got a "gateway busy" error.  After that I got a "server not found" error.  I decided something weird had happened and went away to make dinner.   

Glad things are more or less back to normal.   

[Psieye]

If a player has no programming skill whatsoever, standing orders are simple enough to understand that they can just copy/paste from a cookbook or from forum posts if the interface needs syntax care - simple IF ELSE statements are understood even by non-programmers as it's part of everyday logic in life.

This is already far too complex for the average user. A user should not have to look up things in a "cookbook" or on the forum in order to play the game, even for late-game/convenience-oriented things. What you're proposing is infeasible because of this case if for no other reason. If you implement a feature in a game that requires people to look at a script-programming cookbook in order to use it effectively, then you have failed.

Then you are saying that the current version of the game is unsuitable for the average user, due to worldgen params, machinery, the military, underground farming, moods, even the ASCII graphics and pretty much every other regular question that comes our way on the Gameplay subforum. A lot of users can play without looking anything up, simply by figuring things out on their own. But of course, that's not an average user.

Very well, we have laid out our views. Depending on how we interpret the scope of the word "scripting", multiple viewpoints are valid even if we had a common personality and outlook. Let's let this issue stew in the back of Toady's mind and come back to light when standing production orders gets implemented.

[G-Flex]

Then you are saying that the current version of the game is unsuitable for the average user, due to worldgen params, machinery, the military, underground farming, moods, even the ASCII graphics and pretty much every other regular question that comes our way on the Gameplay subforum. A lot of users can play without looking anything up, simply by figuring things out on their own. But of course, that's not an average user.

There's a difference between having to look up documentation and having to learn a scripting language, especially a fairly counter-intuitive one. A big difference.

Regarding underground farming, there do need to be easier ways to get that done, in particular the player should be able to trivially tell dwarves to dump water on a given tile (but not necessarily from above). Regarding the military, yes, the current system provides so little feedback and is so quirky that I don't consider it very acceptable (mainly with feedback, though).

ASCII graphics are just a matter of recognition, and tilesets are available anyway to ameliorate that problem for a lot of people.


Obviously, there are a lot of things in the game that need to be made simpler for the player to understand and deal with. I think that everyone knows this. I'm not going to defend the military interface, or the lack of ability to irrigate ground very easily, or any of a number of obscure things the game ought to tell you but doesn't.

However, that doesn't mean that new features should be implemented that are even more impenetrable than what we already have. Just because the game is unnecessarily difficult to deal with in a lot of ways does not mean that this should be accepted as the norm for new features, especially features that are intended to make gameplay less frustrating (like automating fortress behavior). The opposite trend should be true, and for the most part that seems to be the plan.


As far as in-game conditional orders are concerned, I think a lot could be done simply with a guided user interface. After all, one rule that needs to be followed here is that, ideally, a feature should be intuitive enough that a user can achieve what he wants with it simply by understanding what he wants. In this case, if a user wants X to happen under Y conditions, as long as condition Z isn't true, then he should be able to do that without the interface getting in the way too much.

[Psieye]

Last post in this thread before moving onto .09 reading.

As far as in-game conditional orders are concerned, I think a lot could be done simply with a guided user interface. After all, one rule that needs to be followed here is that, ideally, a feature should be intuitive enough that a user can achieve what he wants with it simply by understanding what he wants. In this case, if a user wants X to happen under Y conditions, as long as condition Z isn't true, then he should be able to do that without the interface getting in the way too much.

If a player has no programming skill whatsoever, standing orders are simple enough to understand that they can just copy/paste from a cookbook or from forum posts if the interface needs syntax care - simple IF ELSE statements are understood even by non-programmers as it's part of everyday logic in life. I have no comment at present about using scripting for improved machinery.

I'm reminded of a time when I read a chatroom log where 2 sides went at each other for 4 hours. After I read it all, I told them: "you do realise you two were vehemently agreeing with each other for 4 hours?"

Depending on which direction you look at my post, there is nothing that disagrees with your post. I know I could have phrased it bette, but what's written is written. I bring your attention to "if the interface needs syntax care". I'm aware you were no longer talking directly to me when talking about "especially a fairly counter-intuitive one" - it's a point that had to be mentioned nonetheless. Oh well, these variable interpretations of the same text is what makes wrangling fun.

[Mel_Vixen]

1. could we take the script discussion to the General discussion forum?

2. I think scripting isnt that bad. For the Standart player there could be easy and intuitive scripts for standing orders and alike that are integrated into the releases. This way even the Standard player can enjoy them. For modding purposes i would say a script-language would be perfect for stuff like civ-behavior NPC-settlement layouts etc. . Fort automation is a bit much but it opens also the ability to let a fort grow after you abandoned it.

[G-Flex]

Heph: I think you're misinterpreting some things here.

"Fortress automation" does not refer to the fortress running itself outside Fortress Mode. It refers to tools like standing production orders, that help automate fortress control as you play it.

[RAM]

But automation is automation, if the fortress is self-sustaining it really doesn't matter if you are there or not...

[G-Flex]

Yes, it does, because having fortress automation scripts running won't magically make the game simulate the fortress after you abandon it.

Also, I highly doubt any automation script would completely eliminate the need for player control.

[Urist McDepravity]

Yes, it does, because having fortress automation scripts running won't magically make the game simulate the fortress after you abandon it.

Actually, why not? Having own AI on per-fortress basis would make world advancement far more hilarious and entertaining.
Current civs/sites are too boring in this regard - they are all the same for each race.

[G-Flex]

Yes, it does, because having fortress automation scripts running won't magically make the game simulate the fortress after you abandon it.

Actually, why not? Having own AI on per-fortress basis would make world advancement far more hilarious and entertaining.

Of course it would. Letting the players run scripts in fortress mode would not accomplish it. Hell, your computer wouldn't even be able to run that; it's pretty absurd to think the game could even handle multiple fortress modes going on at once (which is basically what you're talking about), and even if Toady were to do something like that, he'd have to do a hell of a lot more than let you run automated control scripts in-game.

[Urist McDepravity]

Hell, your computer wouldn't even be able to run that; it's pretty absurd to think the game could even handle multiple fortress modes going on at once (which is basically what you're talking about), and even if Toady were to do something like that, he'd have to do a hell of a lot more than let you run automated control scripts in-game.

In terms of performance, it should not matter much - Toady needs to solve past-worldgen world advancement anyway and that requires some kind of fast-but-detailed-enough abstraction of most of concepts. Surely there is no need to simulate each damn dorf in each fort. But neither do we talk about this level of scripting.
We talked about level of 'production orders', where you just say 'produce 1000 booze if quantity goes below 100 and we have over 200 brewable' for example. It does not control individual dorfs or individual workshops.
On THIS level of control you can run many forts at once.
Since power goals include proper trading, map parties, wars, and so on, sooner or later Toady would need to solve fort control anyway - what each site produces, what it exports, what it imports, etc. And that could be scripted.