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[Sean Mirrsen]

quote:Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>Dwarves bite, headbutt, and beardstrangle.  They don't need knives when grappling.</STRONG>

Now then, this idea never occured to me. I did give dwarves the head-bash attack in my mod, and added the beards, but I didn't think of making it a grabbing limb...  This would have the added benefit of armor protection affecting the beard...

And I think weapons will need to be greatly expanded upon, in the code, before we can add any significant variety of weapons to the game, outide of purely flavoring it up. We need multiple skill-based attacks with custom messages, we need (for Armok's sake, please!) varying values for the weapons, we need civilian skills be available alongside military ones, we need weapons being used together with natural attacks, we also need the ability to specify what material a weapon can be made of, or what combination of materials.

What I'm thinking is along the lines of this:

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[NAME:shortsword:shortswords]
[VALUE:10]
[WEIGHT:5]
[ATTACK:SWORD:slash:slashes:80:SLASH:0:5] last two numbers are critboost and stickchance
[ATTACK:SWORD:stab:stabs:110:PIERCE:2:15]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:4]
[TWO_HANDED:4]
[MATERIAL_PRIMARY][METAL:NO_MATGLOSS:2][WOOD:NO_MATGLOSS:1] only one primary is chosen
[MATERIAL_SECONDARY:hilt:wrapped with bands of][LEATHER:NO_MATGLOSS:1][CLOTH:NO_MATGLOSS:1] presumes materials are finally separated into such classes
[MATERIAL_SECONDARY:hilt:made from a solid piece of][WOOD:NO_MATGLOSS:1][IVORY:NO_MATGLOSS:1] any number of secondaries may be chosen although only once each, identical strings are concatenated into sentences, such as "Its hilt is made from a solid piece of Oak and wrapped with bands of cow leather."

[ June 04, 2008: Message edited by: Sean Mirrsen ]

[Fedor]

I'm a big fan of Tamren's post of May 19, 2007 (the one talking about the distinction between warriors and soldiers and between soldiers, levees, and militia).

[vanarbulax]

I think all the little weapons like the blowdart or daggers and such should do significantly less damage than their "better" counterparts but have a slightly faster rate of fire but more importantly be able to get hits on critical areas more easily, daggers and darts manage to get between joins of armour and hit with accuracy on things like the neck.

[Puzzlemaker]

I agree 100% with the soldier-versus-warrior post, and I think about the distinction a lot in games.

If you have two groups, a group of highly trained warriors, and a group of poorly trained (in regards to weapon usage) but highly disciplined, the soldiers will win.  Shield walls are hard to break.

If you have both qualities, you get stuff like Sparta.

Anyway, list of things that I think need implementation.

1.  Shield blocking arrows more.
2.  Battle lines.  When you station a squad, click from one square to another to form a battle line, and the dwarves will spread themselves out on it.
3.  Facing.  The ability to select what direction to face, especially helpful with shield walls.

[Normandy]

I'd say crossbows and bows have to miss more. If you have ever tried it in real life, you'll realize that it's incredibly difficult to hit even a human sized moving target at any appreciable distance, with any appreciable speed [of firing]. The killing power in my opinion, is just right.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Normandy:
<STRONG>I'd say crossbows and bows have to miss more. If you have ever tried it in real life, you'll realize that it's incredibly difficult to hit even a human sized moving target at any appreciable distance, with any appreciable speed [of firing]. The killing power in my opinion, is just right.</STRONG>

Oh yes, it took me 2 months worth of weekend practice at the archery range to be able to hit a bullseye at 60 meters. Hitting moving targets at any range is in the region of years of practice.

quote:Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>Dwarves bite, headbutt, and beardstrangle.  They don't need knives when grappling.</STRONG>

Bullcrap! With a knife you can cut off the hair of an elf and strangle him WITH HIS OWN HAIR! THink of the irony!  

[ June 04, 2008: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Techhead]

I think that blackjacks are a more fitting choice for those Dwarf Rouges than daggers.
I also think that a rebar-firing crossbow with sniper scope is much more dwarvenly than a stupid little blowgun.
Of course, we can't actually call them rebars until dwarves invent concrete, but we can still make glass lenses for the scope.

(Yes, a stupid reference was inserted into the above post, and it doesn't have anything to do with blackjack)

[Duke 2.0]

quote:Originally posted by Techhead:
<STRONG>I think that blackjacks are a more fitting choice for those Dwarf Rouges than daggers.
I also think that a rebar-firing crossbow with sniper scope is much more dwarvenly than a stupid little blowgun.
Of course, we can't actually call them rebars until dwarves invent concrete, but we can still make glass lenses for the scope.

(Yes, a stupid reference was inserted into the above post, and it doesn't have anything to do with blackjack)</STRONG>

But where will we get the electricity to heat the rebar to it's melting point?

But to this discussion, there is only one weapon that can fire like our current crossbows can.

Repeating crossbow.

Of course the damage and range would need to be nerfed a LOT to get realistic standards. That and/or the bolts need to be under a certain weight. Thus no iron bolts for this weapon.

[Fleeb]

I'd be happy with a military that wouldn't just up and decide to take a nap in the middle of a life and death struggle for their homes.

Also, I love how enemy crossbowmen run away from attackers and keep their distance while shooting, but your own stay in one place, often all alone and firing at an enemy a thousand yards away, ignoring the five closer enemies that are filling him full of bolts.

Had to vent. Just got sieged and wiped out. Bitter. Sorry.

[Techhead]

The rebar is heated with either coal or a glob of magma.
Iron doesn't melt in DF magma, so I got this all planned out.
That, or plump helmets with copper and zinc electrodes inserted into them.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>We had a grand old time on this topic on many occasions. I even did a post on forearm mounted repeater crossbows one time. Fun stuff.

That said though we should probably wait around for the combat arc as the army arc deals with something else entirely.</STRONG>

The Lord of Walls of Text hath spoken.

But no, we shouldn't wait, since that's shat suggestions are: ideas and notions that might affect, influence or change the train of development.

As for my suggestion on this topic, which hasn't been ressurected as much as revitialised --doesn't "thread revitialisation" sound so much better than "thread necromancy"?!-- to confess to childom sins, I have always liked the Warhammer Fantasy Battle weapon system. In it all weapons always deal 1 damage augmented by strength of wielder, but all weapon types have special effects, a bit like DF already has: spears have longer range, bludgedoning weapons can knock the target back, and in DF slashing weapons cause bleeding. Some weapons have hit or defence bonii against certain troop types, and it would be natural that some weapons are less suitable against certain armour (notice that I didn't say that some are BETTER against certain types).

So my suggestion is actually to simplify the damage dealt system (no weapon deals more or less damage per se) but keep or diversify the additional effects system.

Also, increase armour and shield effectiveness, especially against missiles, as per suggestion above.

[Tamren]

Yeah, right now damage is little more than a number. If your side of the equation beats the other guy's side, then he loses in a big way.

Currently that number is not used for very much. For bludgeoning weapons the damage scale pretty much goes from bruising->mangling->head asploding. Most bladed weapons quickly scale up the point where they sever limbs and in some cases cut the enemy in half.

What we should do is move weapon damage away from these base numerical stats. We need to track stuff like the shape of the weapon and the angle it hits. Organ detection right now is not that great. Though it can be hilarious at times I don't see how a thrown coin can take out a goblins right foot and BOTH eyes at the same time.

Then on the other side of the line we need to give armour some realistic stats. Plate armour for example is rarely done properly. Armour must be more than a percentile or you won't be able to implement things like deflection, which is more or less the whole point of plate armour.\

Eventually it would be nice to hit someone in the arm with a mace and watch the combat dialog. Perhaps you would hit squarely, crush the articulated joint (which freezes the elbow) and carry on to strike the chest leaving another bruise. That or a shot arrow deflecting off a helmet and hitting another guy square in the face.

Its that "random 1 in a million crap" that makes games so interesting. Just like  teamkilling sniper bullets that bounce off thrown grenades in halo 3.

[Avelon]

I like a lot of these ideas, especially the soldier vs. warrior one. Here's my 2¢ worth:

Weapon balance is mostly okay. Mostly. It's ARMOUR that desperately needs looking at. Currently, an unarmoured goblin Elite Crossbowman can and will lay waste to your Legendary Armour User adventurer in full masterwork steel plate armed with an artifact Adamantine two-handed sword and an artifact Adamantine shield. Why? Because armour doesn't defend you the way it *should*.

It's all well and good to absorb damage, but when you get right down to it, well made steel armour WILL prevent a point-blank crossbow bolt from piercing your heart. Your side? No, probably not. But your chest is NOT going to take a hit from a bolt. The bolt will dent the armour and bounce off, or in some rare cases would make a shallow indentation and stick there. If not fired directly at a flat area, it would in all likelihood simply be deflected.

*Good* platemail is very curvaceous. There are few if any flat surfaces, because a flat surface means a spear, arrow, or crossbow bolt will easily puncture the armour. You *can't* wear extremely thick armour and expect to be able to move in it, and as a result, the plate is only a few millimeters thick. The idea is not that a greatsword to the head will be blocked anime-style - it's that the greatsword will slide off the side and hopefully then slide off of your shoulder, or lose too much force to cleave your pauldron and cut off your arm.

So, yes, maybe the crossbows and bows need a slower rate of fire or require loading between shots (is 'r' mapped to anything in Adventurer mode? Could use that), but what armour does really needs to be revamped in order to implement a diverse set of effects weapons can have, and to make crossbows NOT destroy anything and everything you fire at.

[Tamren]

The problem with crossbows is that they combine piercing damage with the 2 crit modifier. Even if your armour is fantastic, nothing short of full adamantine will block a bolt or arrow completely because armour reduces damage by a set amount. If any damage at all bypasses the armour then it uses that crit modifier to go for the organs. So even if it deals little damage it could pierce a lung and get you bleeding badly.

Also, unless a masterwork of design, plain curved plate armour is the best. Doodads like spikes will catch weapons blows and defeat the deflection properties of the armour. There are exceptions to this however. Fluting is often used to strengthen platemail.

Fluting is the art of beating long peaks and valleys into a smooth plate. What this does is give the plate a ridged appearance. The raised ridges will help to deflect and absorb impacts because of thier shape. You would assume that the valleys would make the armour more vulnerable to piercing but it doesn't quite work that way. The shape of the material means that anything that pierces the bottom of a valley will force the material to "pinch" onto the intruding object. This makes it far harder for things like arrows to penetrate fluted armour compared to plain smooth plate armour. Especially given that most arrows (broadheads in particular) will be deflected off the ridges before they end up in the valleys.

[Techhead]

Very nice, but it no personnel armor will stop my tungsten ballista arrow!!!
However, 3 things need to be fixed, from what I've heard.
1. The crit modifier to arrows and bolts needs to be removed
2. Weapons can only damage organs that occupy body-parts damaged in the same blow.
3. No ridiculous 2 arms, leg and head hits with a single mace swing. I could only do that if he was assuming the fetal position.