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Author Topic: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?  (Read 5818 times)

Phmcw

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2010, 10:13:40 am »

---> Virex, yes, and it was quite a fight. Not finished mind you. Corporate goon are still pushing law and exemption to try to slip them in. And acta is pressuring India and Brazil to make them adopt new law about patent and copyright.
Stay tuned to Stallman's political note to be informed. If you're in france, the april website is interesting . 
I've almost forgotten to mention the free software foundation, et la quadrature du net.
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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2010, 10:26:13 am »

You're saying that I, who did implant the grim tome Necronomicon into the mind of the Mad Arab, do not have the right to say the Necronomicon can't be printed in x country?

Can't copyright that on the grounds of original research.  8)
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Zifnab

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 10:30:31 am »

Hasn't it already been established that the US is not allowing people to patent genes?

Its being appealed.  Hopefully the ruling saying patents on genes not being allowed is upheld.  I believe that right now, about 20% of the genes in the human genome are patented.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2010, 10:37:45 am »

Hasn't it already been established that the US is not allowing people to patent genes?
It was accepted at first (concerning those two genes), but then there was a court ruling against it

There are open issues with US patents in biomedical stuff, though. For instance, cell types/lines patents. Geron was granted an US patent on embryo stem cells (ALL embryo stem cells, I think). The EU made a law against such patents, although Geron wanted to try and obtain patents in individual countries.
There was also a big patent war between two major stem cell companies (I think it was Neuralstem and Stemcells inc, but I am not sure), both of which claimed the patent for a type of neural progenitor. During their litigation, one of them went to the extreme of suing the university that had supplied them with brain and cell samples to develop their product, for using those neural progenitors in universitary R&D.
In this case, the ruling was against the university, because, although officially US law permits you to use patented products in experiments, the spirit of the law (according to the judge) was that "such experiments were supposed to be only for personal amusement, not actual further R&D".
I dont know how the matter has ended (was a while ago), but it set a bad precedent
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kuro_suna

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2010, 11:44:47 am »

I'm against patents because they seem incredibly anti-competitive. Right now in any tech field its impossible to compete agents companies that have a war chest of vague patents and money to throw in the courtroom to squash competitors.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:49:18 am by kuro_suna »
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Zangi

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2010, 11:57:25 am »

I'm against patent extension.
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Soadreqm

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2010, 12:55:08 pm »

You'd think it'd be pretty easy to show prior art for the human genome.
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palsch

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2010, 01:49:33 pm »

I'm against patents because they seem incredibly anti-competitive. Right now in any tech field its impossible to compete agents companies that have a war chest of vague patents and money to throw in the courtroom to squash competitors.
This has actually become a sort of MAD warfare now.

You dig into an area like, say, mobile phones. There are companies out there with patents on virtually every idea that has anything to do with mobiles. All of these companies joyously violate each others patents, freely and without fear, because if anyone decided to sue they would have all those violated patents shoved in their face as well. One of the biggest motivators behind the recent HP buyout of Palm was their huge IP warchest. Anyone taking on companies like Apple need such a stash of patents so that they can run roughshod over other peoples ideas.

It can hurt the little guy when big companies choose to shut them down with such methods. Frankly, most of these are fields with such huge barriers to entry that the few cases where that happen are exceptions to the rule; few companies last long enough to become threats, and most of those are too valuable as going concerns and are bought up.


As for IP itself, it's worth a quick primer on the main three sorts. There are debates and discussions to be had about all three.

1) Copyright.
Largely the rights to copy, distribute and adapt an original work. The lines of copyright are somewhat blurred and can depend on where you live (although there is some standardisation), with the main blurry areas being fair use/fair dealing exemptions and derivative works. The first of these are a set of areas where copyright may be violated. There is no bright line and what guidelines exist vary from place to place. I recommend finding a good legal guide for your locality. The latter are works based on previous works, be they in copyright or not. The line between a new work and a violation of the original copyright (or a copy of a public domain work, and so an uncopyrightable work) is a bit weird, and depends a lot on there being 'creativity' involved in the production.

Copyright has a time limitation built in, after which the work reverts to the public domain. These limitations have been expanded vastly in recent decades. This is a major area of debate.

Any work is covered by copyright as soon as it is in a tangible form (in most nations; there are 20 that still require registration while most offer registration as an optional extra). This means as soon as the idea is written down or otherwise recorded it is covered. Defending the copyright normally requires some evidence of that original fixation, which is why usually public publication is used as the initial copyright evidence. Most 'poor man copyright' methods (such as mailing yourself a copy) are absolute nonsense because they can be so easily gamed.

Copyright doesn't have to be defended to be maintained; a copyright holder may choose not to prosecute violation without giving up the right to do so in the future or in other cases. This is important later.

2) Patent.
The rights to the sole exploitation of a new discovery or invention for a period of time in return for publication of that invention or discovery. The time period varies depending on the field and type of patent, but the standard is usually around 20 years.

The rational of such a period is to allow the patent filer to enter the marketplace and have some time trading without competition before everyone can use their idea. In the past, 20 years would have allowed for maybe half the time actually at market, as the majority of ideas required a sizeable initial investment of time and capital (which takes time itself). The time unopposed is there to compensate the initial investment made into R&D behind the discovery.

It's easy to see areas where this breaks. Software patents (a truly messy area that also involves copyrights) easily outlast the profitable lifetime of the software, but still prevent others from using and building on the idea. Because patents protect the idea, not the work itself, even writing a program yourself that does the same thing as the original is a patent violation. This has the potential to be extremely chilling.

Again, patents don't have to be enforced to be enforceable. You can ignore a violation all you want and then sue the pants off someone else for the exact same thing without the original violation mattering.

3) Trademark.
A trademark is a symbol, word, phrase, name, logo or whatever that is entirely entwined with a company. The symbol identifies the company and distinguishes it from others. As such, the company has an interest in protecting that symbol from abuse by others.

For example, lets say I have a logo for my company and I'm very successful at making and selling children's toys and games. My logo becomes well known and recognisable. Then someone uses the same logo for something I really don't want associated with my brand, like sex toys or guns. I'd have the right to sue them for trademark infringement because they are diluting my brand.

Trademarks can be registered, but don't have to be. If they aren't then it needs to be shown that the trademark is recognised and associated with the brand within the area that violated occurred. If I make my toys in London and someone sets up a gun shop in Texas, odds are my logo wouldn't be protected unless I had registered it in all relevant areas.

Trademarks do give you a lot of protection, although there are still exemptions. The main ones are using trademarks to identify the trademark holder or when the trademark itself has a meaning and using it for that meaning. There are lots of phrases that are also trademarks - more than anyone could sensibly be expected to know - but you aren't infringing the trademarks so long as you are using the phrases for their actual meaning and not as a trademark yourself.

A major point about trademarks is that they don't expire unless they are no longer defended. If I decide to ignore other people using my trademark then I have no right to turn around and sue other people for using it in the future. It is considered abandoned. Similarly not using a trademark for a few years will mean it is no longer defended.

This is where a lot of Disney cases come from. Disney consider Mickey Mouse and a range of their other icons as trademarks. This gives them a deep protection from brand dilution. However, they can't not enforce a single case. The absolute most lax they are allowed to be with infringer is to license the use of the trademark and then monitor the products being produced for quality. If they don't then they have abandoned the trademark and anyone can play with it as much as they like. This goes for kids websites as much as Chinese knockoffs.


My personal views;
I think IP laws are needed, but there is definitely room for work and debate.

The purpose of IP law should always be to maximise creativity, by incentivising novel work while not blocking creative expansions on that work. This means giving the creator a sufficient measure of control to profit but not stifle future works.

Copyright allows for creators to profit from their creations. Note that even Creative Commons licenses, which allow for keeping a measure of control over a work while still releasing it into the wild, allow people enough control to still profit and are dependant on copyright law. The same goes for GPL and similar software licenses (themselves a huge and ugly nest not worth digging into). However, the current setup of near perpetual copyright coverage is simply foolish. I'd much rather see a limited period of copyright (say, 20 years) with required filing for expansion after that period. Allow for four expansions of five years each for a total of another twenty years. Very few works are actually profitable after that initial period, and fewer still after the forty years. Further, such distant rewards (which so few earn) are very little incentive to artists. Few write a novel in the hope that their grand kids can be earning money from it fifty seventy years after their death, but that is the current copyright time limit. In the US. I strongly recommend Breyer's dissent in Eldred v. Ashcroft for a powerful examination of that particular issue.

Patents definitely need a lot of thought in their granting (particularly the period) but are essential to encourage expensive R&D.  There are plenty of problems, but I think there are two ways this can be made easier.

1) Require a lot more to go into getting a patent, including a plan for exploitation of the invention. This is then used to determine the period of the patent.
2) Require a patent to be re-registered if sold, with a revised plan for exploitation. At this point the period may be revised downwards.

The point of 2 is simple. A lot of companies buy patents simply to troll for violations by others. If they have no plan for exploitation then the patent office should be able to reduce their patent holding period. Similarly, a smaller company without the ability to exploit a costly patent in a timely manner may require a full 20 year period. If the patent is then bought by a multinational with massive manufacturing capability, they may only need 10 years to have the same effect. Leaving them the full 20 years could have a more chilling effect than the required incentive.

I'm not getting into gene patents right now.

Trademarks can be nastily destructive, but also are vital to companies for defending their brand. They pretty much require a company to be a dick, but at the same time without them the company loses control of it's image. This is a sticky problem and I'm not entirely sure of the best way out.
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kuro_suna

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2010, 02:29:52 pm »

I'd be ok with patents if they work more like copyright,

1: More specific, Its illegal to make a copy of the lord of the rings but JR can't sue anyone who makes a book about a fantasy world vaguely based off medieval Europe and Celtic mythology.

2: Only patent actual products, You can't copyright a idea for a fantasy world with dwarfs and elves and sue anyone who actually makes it.
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Virex

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2010, 02:42:12 pm »

Quote
1) Require a lot more to go into getting a patent, including a plan for exploitation of the invention. This is then used to determine the period of the patent.
2) Require a patent to be re-registered if sold, with a revised plan for exploitation. At this point the period may be revised downwards.

Would "selling the patent" be a valid exploitation plan? Because otherwise this is going to hit R&D-focused companies very hard.


Also, I'm partial to your ideas Kuro, because patenting methods is also quite important. For example, if my company would invent a new way to make an existing product (let's say we can shave 3 steps of the synthesis of aspirin), then under your description this would not be patentable. I don't know how desirable that would be, but I'd say it's not what you had in mind. (For the record, patenting a fantasy world is out of the question anyway, because it doesn't solve a technical problem)
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 02:47:09 pm »

Copyright is absurdly lenghty as it is.

This is in part compensated by the fact that (insofar as private copy is concerned) is unenforceable.
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Baughn

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 03:03:21 pm »

I'll add my two cents:

If software patents were fully enforced, DF would not exist. It violates at least three patents I could name (but won't, no need to tempt fate here), two of those of course in my code. Also probably a dozen more in Toady's.

And that's with DF being, well, rather idiosyncratic. Any modern game - any of them - is sure to violate rather more, to say nothing of other software. I fully expect someone to try enforcing one of them, one of these days, which makes me very glad I'm European. Well, for the moment.

Part of that is due to granting patents that should be too obvious, but part is their terms being far, far too long. There's also another issue, in that requiring reasonable amounts if unobviousness would probably make them useless - there are too many different way to do things, here, without the restrictions if physics. CS is halfway math, after all.
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fenrif

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 03:12:38 pm »

You dig into an area like, say, mobile phones. There are companies out there with patents on virtually every idea that has anything to do with mobiles. All of these companies joyously violate each others patents, freely and without fear, because if anyone decided to sue they would have all those violated patents shoved in their face as well. One of the biggest motivators behind the recent HP buyout of Palm was their huge IP warchest. Anyone taking on companies like Apple need such a stash of patents so that they can run roughshod over other peoples ideas.

Funny you mention that, beacuse slashdot has been rife with articles talking about Apple basically infinging on the other major phone companies patents willy-nilly and generally being a bit of a dick about it. The impression I got was that most of the major phone companies (nokia, erricson, etc) all allow each other to use their patents beacuse they all fund research in the field. Whereas apple just basically took all their advancements and heavily invests in marketing, which pissed all the other companies off.

Search "apple patent" or somesuch on slashdot and it'll throw up a bunch of articles about it.
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dragnar

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 03:18:12 pm »

The patent system stinks. It's far too easily exploitable for all the reasons everybody has listed here. That said, I can't think of a better system that would work.

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that's the exact issue, i don't accept society >_>
Neither do I, it's riddled with problems and just plain stupid laws. Doesn't mean I go around saying it is terrible and should be torn down. I could easily design a better society, a perfect one. It would probably look almost exactly like communism. The problem? A perfect society doesn't work without perfect people, otherwise you have to design all sorts of safeguards to keep people from exploiting the system. The whole system is flawed because it is built to control flawed beings. There is no way to fix one without fixing the other.
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Cthulhu

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 03:20:23 pm »

Can't fix it, love it!!

Love the system!
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