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Author Topic: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?  (Read 5801 times)

fenrif

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2010, 03:29:04 pm »

The patent system stinks. It's far too easily exploitable for all the reasons everybody has listed here. That said, I can't think of a better system that would work.

Quote
that's the exact issue, i don't accept society >_>
Neither do I, it's riddled with problems and just plain stupid laws. Doesn't mean I go around saying it is terrible and should be torn down. I could easily design a better society, a perfect one. It would probably look almost exactly like communism. The problem? A perfect society doesn't work without perfect people, otherwise you have to design all sorts of safeguards to keep people from exploiting the system. The whole system is flawed because it is built to control flawed beings. There is no way to fix one without fixing the other.

Take people out of the equasion... I for one welcome our Logical robot overlords.
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Soadreqm

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2010, 03:44:05 pm »

Can't fix it, love it!!

Love the system!
High five the Man!
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jaked122

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2010, 07:00:51 pm »

I think that the idea cannot be owned or expected to create profit, the idea should be open to all(preventing monopolies and advancing the human race as a whole)

Lumbajak

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2010, 07:35:14 pm »

The Stranger put himself down and blamed The Man.

I haven't read through the whole thread but in response to the opening post, the guy sounds quite idiotic!

And quinnr's forsaking his avatar angers me!
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Muz

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2010, 07:46:34 pm »

Patents are the best way. Universities and private institutes spend millions of dollars on research.. how else are they going to recoup that money if everything is openly available? There was actually one law once that stated that some things, I think from public universities or something, couldn't be patented. Those things had potential, but were never utilized because nobody saw any commercial benefit to it.

If I could change anything, I'd make patents last only like 10 years or so. But then again, that wouldn't recoup costs for people who spend about as long researching them.


Also, I predict that this thread will derail into some stupid piracy discussion by page 7.
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 10:54:27 pm »

Do not argue with trolls - it means that they will win.
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MrWiggles

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2010, 06:50:07 am »

I think there some confusing with the nebulous term of idea here. An idea can't be owned. A fantasy novel about a band of adventures can't be owned. But Bilbo Bagins and his trope of asshole dwarfs can be. They're both ideas, but it comes down to its identify markers.  Can you tell apart Bilbo Bagins from other short fat whiny protagonists? Yes.

That what matters here; Can you own your identifiable idea? To me the answer is yes. And that is from my understand what Intellectual Property is, a series of ideas that can identifiable from other series of ideas. Counter Strike is different from Team Fortress, even though they're the same idea of a first person shooter.
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Phmcw

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2010, 07:45:35 am »

muz :  The patent system is actually killing the research. Scientifics are totally underpaid, and it's awfully difficult to find credit for fundamental research.

MrWiggle: I disagree with you. The fact that Tolkien invented biblo the hobbit sure give him right to be remunerated if it's work is edited, I don't think he own it. For instance, I think you should have the right to use it for satire, to cite freely some passage in as reference in a paper or to write any fanfictions you'd like. I however would prefer that you wouldn't use my car to play pranks, use any of it's part for scientific purpose or customise it without my consent. I own my car, Tolkien doesn't own Bilbo.
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LordMelvin

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2010, 08:57:26 am »

The fact that Tolkien invented biblo[sic] the hobbit sure give him right to be remunerated if it's work is edited, I don't think he own[sic] it. For instance, I think you should have the right to use it for satire, to cite freely some passage in as reference in a paper or to write any fanfictions you'd like. I however would prefer that you wouldn't use my car to play pranks, use any of it's part for scientific purpose or customise it without my consent. I own my car, Tolkien doesn't own Bilbo.

You're confusing (to an absurd degree) fair use with ownership and IP rights. You do have, and should have, the right to quote from other peoples' work for purposes of analysis and review, through direct limited quotation, within the framework of your own work, or through reasonable plot summaries. For example, something like a book report, movie review, or sociological essay which utilizes a culturally known work for background analytical material. In essence, you can say whatever you feel like saying about a work that someone else has created, and include some of their work directly within your work to provide context. This happens whenever someone writes a book report, reviews a movie, or quotes Joss Whedon's Commentary track on the Serenity Special Edition DVD in their senior thesis paper (Why yes, I did! how did you guess...).

You also have the right to make works that are quite similar to other works, whether on their own right, or as derivative parody works. I can write a fantasy story about an orphaned Wizard named Harry who fights evil, or a three-foot tall person who leaves his ancestral peasant village and goes on adventures, and as long as my Wizard isn't Harry Dresden or Willow (or that Potter kid, or, uh, wossname, Frodo, if you thought I was talking about them...) I'm creating an original work, and that's fine, unless I'm obviously just filing the serial numbers off of one of those pre-existing stories and not adding anything worthwhile.

You even have the right to create works that are obvious copies of original works SO LONG AS you make significant changes enough to
  • A: clearly set your work aside as different from the original and
  • B: add significant changed meaning to the work
as in, for example the Harvard Lampoon's groundbreaking epic fantasy, Bored of the Rings, which uses a certain slight similarity to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (No link for this one. Go find it yourself.) to lambast the hippy culture that, at the time of its publication, had adopted Tolkien's work. The key factor here is that it's not just Tolkien. It's also a commentary on Tolkiens' fandom. (and it's really funny, but that's not important.)

So there's several things you can do. But there's one thing you can't. You can't take someone's characters and - without permission - write new adventures for them. Some authors will give that permission, either by releasing their works under a creative commons license, or any number of other ways. Most won't. George Martin can explain why much better than I can, but the short version, to borrow the absurdist automotive comparison quoted above is simple. You can photograph someone else's car in the street. You can write scathing reviews of someone else's driving habits, or buy another car the same make and model as theirs and try to drive it the same way they do. You can even cut someone else off in traffic and flip them the bird, if you're feeling like an asshole, but you can't hop in their car and drive off with it. Similarly, you can write about another person's characters, or create your own characters who look and act like their characters, or who look and act differently enough to be flipping a proverbial finger towards the original work, but you don't get to use someone else's characters without their permission, just like you don't get to drive someone elses car without permission and...
Hey!
Hey, you!
Get Back here with my car keys! Stop!

(sorry, that got a little longwinded)
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Phmcw

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2010, 10:31:57 am »

Yes, I was trying to point out, maybe clumsily, that a car, or any other physical object you can own, is very different in essence of a song or a book (well he text of the book obviously). It's absurd to try to use the same ownership concept for both.

It's also harmful : even if the law were perfectly designed (let's imagine here that the law was written in such a way that privacy was guaranteed, free speech unhindered by copyright, and interoperability guaranteed, or at least possible), a wide application of copyright and patent would be awfully armful to society.

The core of my argumentation is that free market law, who are designed to benefit society as a whole, would not have the desired effect.

The ideal free market would be one where perfect competition apply.
It ask for 1) Infinite Buyers/Infinite Sellers 2) Zero Entry/Exit Barriers 3) Perfect Information 4) Transactions are Costless 5) Homogeneous Products 6) Firts Aim to Maximize Profits.

In any siuation where IP apply : There is only one seller or product are vastly inhomogeneous, sometime information is imperfect ( most notably closed source software), and for point 6 you must understand that by this, they mean that marginal cost must meet market price. Of course here marginal cost is null.

tl ; dr: Competition is fundamentally flawed in the IP buisness. Therefore applying free market is illogical.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 11:13:20 am by Phmcw »
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palsch

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 11:58:48 am »

muz :  The patent system is actually killing the research. Scientifics are totally underpaid, and it's awfully difficult to find credit for fundamental research.
This isn't due to the patent system. It's the way that businesses have been working for the last decade or two.

The purpose of a company is to maximise their returns for their shareholders. The incentives to those running the company are directly tied to current share price and year-on-year dividends. If you can maximise these for, say, five years, you can make enough in bonuses and other rewards to retire and never think about money again.

This means most companies have been obscenely short sighted. Blue sky research and undirected R&D (eg, exploring a new technology rather than developing a specific product) are hard to evaluate as they apply to current share price, and so don't actually gain anything for a CEO who is planning to bail out of the company a couple of years down the line. On the other hand, pouring money into advertising and maximising a current product - and so market share and share price - has a massive return for those at the top, even if it leaves the company at a disadvantage in the future.

The most obvious example of this was Bell Labs being effectively gutted and sold off for the reputation. The work that was done there is still collecting Nobel prizes, but the sorts of returns they were getting don't count a great deal in the short term market, so there was no real reason to keep them on for anything beyond their PR advantage.

There are a few obvious exceptions to this. Computer hardware sees a fair investment in the underlying scientific fields from the relevant companies. My field is magnetic materials. Most companies that work with hard disks and storage (including Seagate and Hitachi) have huge blue sky R&D. This is simply because new technologies come into being so quickly - from theoretical concept to lab demonstrations to prototype to product - that you can't ignore it from a company standpoint. One company stands still and the others leave them behind. Also I like to think these companies still have enough technical knowledge at the top to not fall into the usual traps, but I'm not confident in that.

The only real solution to this would be to skew... well, not the market as much as the incentive system to businesses. Tie CEO's and other executives' rewards to the long term health of the company over decades. That forces a long term view and added focus on the R&D aspects to ensure that the company maintains an edge into the future. I don't think this would be too hard to set up, but there is no way it will happen. It would require stock in companies becoming long term investments on the same scale, and with the way the stock markets work today that would wipe out something like half of the economy of most first world nations, along with what remains of our banking system. Probably not the best tradeoff.

The thing is, it is patents that let these companies make money. Some stuff is a little absurd (check the chemical make-up of some magnetic materials in hard disks and you'll see a lot of variations on the same basic recipe, because the optimum formula was patented...) but without the patents the R&D could never be paid for at all.

As for scientists being underpaid, I'm not going to argue (physics grad student here).
tl ; dr: Competition is fundamentally flawed in the IP buisness. Therefore applying free market is illogical.
I think there is a simpler argument that explains the same thing. In full here but I'll summarise.

The free market works for private goods. That is, goods that are rival (there is a limited amount and if I have one that is one less for you) and excludable (you can control who has access to the good). For non-private goods it doesn't work as well, simply because those two qualities are central to the way it works.

The most obvious problem is common goods; rival but non-excludable - a limited amount but no way to control who gets it. This is where government regulation tries to add in artificial controls over who gets it (laws about pollution, overfishing, etc) which work to create a market. My favourite example here are carbon exchanges, where you have an entirely artificial market to regulate a common good where the market previously didn't apply at all. But that's an entirely separate debate.

Club goods (non-rival, excludable) aren't particularly important most of the time. Arguably the market applies here because they are excludable, but because they are non-rival my view is that the market here is pretty much arbitrary. That is, the optimum distribution of the good depends entirely on your market philosophy. If your view is simply that monetary profit should be maximised then you can find an optimum point of exclusion. If you want to maximise social good then you will probably want to minimise exclusion (or at least find a different optimum point). I think that this area has some applicability in, say, healthcare debates, but again, that isn't relevant to this thread.

Pure public goods are the nasty ones. These are non-rival and non-excludable.

Most IP falls into this area. My knowing something, or having a copy of a book/program/video/song doesn't mean you can't have another copy. Similarly it's very hard to control access to IP once it is in the wild. Again, there are attempts to change this, using stuff like DRM and anti-piracy legislation, but those are attempts to create an artificial market force.

The bigger problem here is that this is a relatively recent advance. For the most part in history IP and content has been a club good. It's been easily excludable. Since the internet though it's been insanely hard to regulate access. Most content based industries based on controlling access to IP (eg, the music industry, publishing industry, etc) are finding that their business models simply don't work anymore. That is where all the pushes for DRM and legislation come from - attempts to artificially keep afloat a market that just got torpedoed under the waterline.

For what this means, read that post at Charlies Diary and the comments. The S/N ratio is pretty fantastic there. In particular trying to work out new markets and way of monetising IP (particularly art) without depending on excluding access.
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Phmcw

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2010, 02:31:10 pm »

My view on the subject is that taxes can and must be used to fund research, instead on relying on private funding (private funding being a polite way to say that science can gtfo if it serve anything else than immediate profit.)
Patent system is just killing he research further by making it yet more costly.

 
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Virex

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2010, 02:56:40 pm »

There is already a lot of tax money going to research though. Universities are largely government-funded and there are plenty of research associations receiving government aid.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2010, 03:04:10 pm »

there's not damn enough money going into research to justify doing away with patents ATM. Not to mention that it's the first thing that goverments slash. After all, why fund anything that wont yield benefits before the next election?


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Virex

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Re: (Intellectual Property) How do you convince someone?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 03:45:50 pm »

I thought first thing was always health care/schooling, because minors, terminally injured and disabled people generally don't vote?
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