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[MetalSlimeHunt]

I for one, welcome our new Amerixican overlords. There's a lot of conspiracy theory garbage out there about a hypothetical North American Union, but I don't see the big deal. CanAmerExico wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

It could invalidate the Constitution. Big possiblity there.

[sonerohi]

We would need a new name. The North Coalition.

[Zifnab]

I for one, welcome our new Amerixican overlords. There's a lot of conspiracy theory garbage out there about a hypothetical North American Union, but I don't see the big deal. CanAmerExico wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

It could invalidate the Constitution. Big possiblity there.

It would if they merged into a union.
It would not if the United States conquered/annexed the other countries.

[Earthquake Damage]

We would need a new name.

I should think (North) America would be appropriate.

[smjjames]

I for one, welcome our new Amerixican overlords. There's a lot of conspiracy theory garbage out there about a hypothetical North American Union, but I don't see the big deal. CanAmerExico wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

It could invalidate the Constitution. Big possiblity there.

It would if they merged into a union.
It would not if the United States conquered/annexed the other countries.

Theres already a North American Economic union, but if we did something like the EU (which is currently having a hell of a monetary problem), that would work as the three would keep their soverignity.

[ChairmanPoo]

Yeah, because the EU is working so well. I specially like how we can trust EU goverments not to don't indebt their countries into ruination just to keep a clean face in front of the voters. Because it would suck if someone did that, and thus harmed all other € economies along the way.
Oh wait...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I think its safe to say the European Union dosen't have a bright future. That's what happens when you try to take the soverignity of nations through political force.

[smjjames]

It worked for a short while.

Okay yea I'm not really paying that much attention to what the EU was doing to itself.

It is compounded by the fact that there are so many different economics and the various countries own problems.

[Leafsnail]

Hey, the European Union is great.  It means that someone else has a more devalued currency than us.

And as much as I'd say drug use is a stupid idea, I'd be pro-legalisation for most of them.  It's not just the Taliban and the Mexican cartels who benefit from the current laws... domestic gangs make most of their money from it too.

[Sevrun]

yeah, we have enough elite socialist snobs dragging their countries economy through the crapper already and lookin to the U.S.A. to help them out or outright blaming us for the problem.  Being a Native American I could say that I just want ALL you buggers off our land, but that's unrealistic.  So let me attempt a bit of enlightenment here.

  Arizona has been attempting to deal with the problem without any serious federal support for as long as I can remember, just like the rest of the Southwestern U.S. as a whole.  Southern California's solution was to pretend they're citizens and everything's fine... i.e. ignore the issue and it'll go away.  Doesn't seemed to have worked out too well, honestly.  Arizona is taking a different track, remove the incentives that bring them here illegally.  Not to keep them out entirely, but to push them into the process of becoming _LEGAL_ immigrants and (gasp) helping support the system they have been abusing.  There is a system out there that actively abuses illegal immigrants as a cheap source of labor and keeps them in a level of squalor that most of you would find utterly repugnant, with five or six people living in a room and upward of 30 (extreme cases) in a 3 bedroom home.  Why?  Because the people that will hire them treat them little better than slaves and pay equally poorly.  So the question I have to ask isn't why should we STOP this...  But why any person with a sense of decency would fight against the end of these practices.  Is it going to be uncomfortable?  Yes.  Unpleasant?  Yes.  Is there going to be collateral damage?  Unfortunate, but yes.  Is it worth it?

YES.

And no, I'm not even going into the whole drug gangs/violence/etc. aspect of what happens on the borders because that's a whole separate rant from the poor bastards that are just trying to get along in the world.

P.S. to all you people who think the U.S. is cruel for _not_ exercising it's laws...  Take a good hard look at other countries sometime.  You go to Mexico and get caught there illegally, see if you enjoy their hospitality in a prison most likely controlled by a drug gang.  China?  North Korea?  They'll just kill you and not bother burying the body.  Even the laws the U.S. doesn't enforce are not particularly draconian, as all we do IS SEND THEM HOME.  regardless of where they come from (with numerous exceptions)

[fenrif]

helping support the system they have been abusing. 

How are they abusing the system? By paying much more in taxes than they use in social services? By paying more in taxes than most citizens?

Your arguement that all illegal immigrants live in absolute squalor is a bit silly. you aren't talking about Dubai here, they can leave any time they want, all they have to do is wander up to a cop and say they're illegally in the country. If there are illegal immigrants in those conditions (big if, it's definatly not all of them. Probobly isn't even the majority), it's because it's better than where they came from. If not in terms of quality of life, certainly in terms of what they can provide for their families back home.

P.S. to all you people who think the U.S. is cruel for _not_ exercising it's laws...  Take a good hard look at other countries sometime.  You go to Mexico and get caught there illegally, see if you enjoy their hospitality in a prison most likely controlled by a drug gang.  China?  North Korea?  They'll just kill you and not bother burying the body.  Even the laws the U.S. doesn't enforce are not particularly draconian, as all we do IS SEND THEM HOME.  regardless of where they come from (with numerous exceptions)

People don't think the US is cruel for excercising its laws or not, It's beacuse the laws themselves are cruel.

Saying "oh it's wortse in other countries" is silly. On one hand your arguement is "well we aren't the worst." If all you're aiming for is to not be the worst then fair doos, but I thought America was home of the free, etc? Second of all you're holding Mexico up as a worse place than the USA then wondering why so many people come cross into the USA. "All we do is send them home to the horribly violent place ruled by cartels where they came from" sounds a lot less benign than you phrased it, doesn't it?

[Sevrun]

I know why they come here, They are not the system that is abusing them, I'm sorry for being unclear there.  There are a large number of employers that do abuse them, and until recently were subject to severe (if rare) consequences.  although I am curious to know how you figure they pay more than they use in services when they don't pay taxes, use the emergency rooms as one stop shopping for medical care (and don't pay), have their kids in schools, etc.  By closing off the border and reforming immigration laws as a whole we make ourselves better, and better able to live up to the standards that many people feel better reflect the ideals of our nation as a whole.  It is a very (pardon the term) shitty situation all round that has been left to fester by the people directly responsible for preventing it, and now lower level governments are being forced to deal with the situation themselves.  Do you honestly think Arizona wants to be the bad guy?  I think they're just trying to protect the legal citizens, and rightly so.  It is to our credit that we do not do the things I have pointed out that others do, not to say that we aren't the worst, but to show we have a greater concern for others than most would be willing to admit or understand because we do not deal with them in so callous a style even when we don't know _WHAT_ exactly to do with them.  And that is a question I honestly don't have a perfect answer for.  but I do have a few ideas.

[fenrif]

although I am curious to know how you figure they pay more than they use in services when they don't pay taxes, use the emergency rooms as one stop shopping for medical care (and don't pay), have their kids in schools, etc. 

If you aren't going to take the time to read the sources I allready posted (or more than the last page of this thread as I assume) then I'm going to assume you're being willfully ignorant, which is fine, but it's kinda pointless to join in a discussion without knowing what people are talking about, or what's allready been said.

Your own government's studies have shown that illegal immigrants pay more taxes and use less social services than citizens. They contribute more to the system and use less of the resources than normal citizens.

[RedKing]

yeah, we have enough elite socialist snobs dragging their countries economy through the crapper already and lookin to the U.S.A. to help them out or outright blaming us for the problem.  Being a Native American I could say that I just want ALL you buggers off our land, but that's unrealistic.  So let me attempt a bit of enlightenment here.

  Arizona has been attempting to deal with the problem without any serious federal support for as long as I can remember, just like the rest of the Southwestern U.S. as a whole.  Southern California's solution was to pretend they're citizens and everything's fine... i.e. ignore the issue and it'll go away.  Doesn't seemed to have worked out too well, honestly.  Arizona is taking a different track, remove the incentives that bring them here illegally.  Not to keep them out entirely, but to push them into the process of becoming _LEGAL_ immigrants and (gasp) helping support the system they have been abusing.  There is a system out there that actively abuses illegal immigrants as a cheap source of labor and keeps them in a level of squalor that most of you would find utterly repugnant, with five or six people living in a room and upward of 30 (extreme cases) in a 3 bedroom home.  Why?  Because the people that will hire them treat them little better than slaves and pay equally poorly.  So the question I have to ask isn't why should we STOP this...  But why any person with a sense of decency would fight against the end of these practices.  Is it going to be uncomfortable?  Yes.  Unpleasant?  Yes.  Is there going to be collateral damage?  Unfortunate, but yes.  Is it worth it?

Let me turn that question around for you. Why do you think they come here, DESPITE being paid poorly, treated like slaves, abused, taken advantage of, and having to cram into houses and vans like clown cars? Because they LIKE living like that? Or because the alternatives in their own countries are even worse?

There are legitimate arguments to be made for strict immigration control, but trying to paint it as the moral high ground position is disingenuous at best. Generations of immigrants to America lived in bad conditions. And they did so because it was still better than what they left behind. It's hypocritical and patronizing to then turn around and say, "Aww, we can't stand to see you crammed into a shack like that....so here, go back to your country (and live in a crappier shack)."

P.S. to all you people who think the U.S. is cruel for _not_ exercising it's laws...  Take a good hard look at other countries sometime.  You go to Mexico and get caught there illegally, see if you enjoy their hospitality in a prison most likely controlled by a drug gang.  China?  North Korea?  They'll just kill you and not bother burying the body.  Even the laws the U.S. doesn't enforce are not particularly draconian, as all we do IS SEND THEM HOME.  regardless of where they come from (with numerous exceptions)

Can't speak for North Korea, but China doesn't kill illlegals. And they have a major problem with North Korean refugees. Interestingly enough, their response is to do exactly what you propose: they send them back. Where they're probably killed or imprisoned for trying to escape in the first place. Remind me how that's the "merciful" option again? Internally, China also has a major problem with illegal movement of Chinese from the countryside to the cities. They get exploited pretty much the same way that illegals do here. And like here, they're a big part of why China can build a new 40-story residential skyscraper in under six months. Because these guys will work ridiculous hours in unsafe conditions for pennies a day, because it's still better than what they left.

[Sevrun]

although I am curious to know how you figure they pay more than they use in services when they don't pay taxes, use the emergency rooms as one stop shopping for medical care (and don't pay), have their kids in schools, etc. 

If you aren't going to take the time to read the sources I allready posted (or more than the last page of this thread as I assume) then I'm going to assume you're being willfully ignorant, which is fine, but it's kinda pointless to join in a discussion without knowing what people are talking about, or what's allready been said.

Your own government's studies have shown that illegal immigrants pay more taxes and use less social services than citizens. They contribute more to the system and use less of the resources than normal citizens.

Fenrif, I know what I _see_.  you show me a source like that and I have to ask where they're getting the raw data from.  being a computer repair tech has taught me not to trust anyone else's estimation of a problem if I'm going to be putting effort into fixing it.  I've seen enough 'studies' and 'surveys' where the numbers were manipulated or massaged to take them with a grain of salt, especially when it doesn't match the reality I see around me every day.  If you wish to believe me ignorant because I'm unwilling to blindly accept a potentially biased study when I have eyes to see and ears to hear, then by all means, do so.

Redking, I'm afraid you misunderstand.  I'm not taking the moral high ground, I'm saying that by fixing this problem we make ourselves better as a people and a nation, not by allowing it to continue.