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Author Topic: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children  (Read 11213 times)

ZeroGravitas

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2010, 04:34:51 am »

To a bill that clarifies an existing legal precedent that children born in the US to illegally immigrated parents are not natural citizens...

There absolutely is no precedent that holds this and it contradicts the direct text of the 14th Amendment. Arguing that somehow Wong Kim Ark stands for the validity of this bill is utterly backwards. Maybe the fact that a child is illegal is somewhat different that Wong Kim Ark but you'd have to argue that on appeal, not start from the automatic presumption that the kid is NOT a citizen.

You want to talk about best interests? It'd be in your best interest to read the actual Constitution. Believe the 14th Amendment goes something like this:

Quote
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Did you manage to comprehend that? If the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is confusing you, try reading Plyer v. Doe or INS v. Rios-Pineda. If you are born in the US you are a citizen unless you are a native American tribe member or the child of foreign government official or someone who otherwise wouldn't be subject to regular American law.

Oh, is it not in Arizona's interest to follow the Constitution? Then maybe they should GTFO of the Union.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2010, 04:53:07 am »

Oh, is it not in Arizona's interest to follow the Constitution? Then maybe they should GTFO of the Union.

Considering the number of boycotts and condemnations that came from the other states on the passing of their last immigration law, this isn't too far out there. Still, the states have always tried to find ways around the Consitution ever since the formation of the Union. Jim Crow Laws and Poll Tax, anyone? Considering how there are groups of Texans who support their state leaving the Union, it would be somewhat unnerving to see Arizona adopt the same attitude.
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fenrif

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Re: Arizona To-Be-Law Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2010, 06:31:42 am »

Guess what? The state of Arizona happens to be filled with human beings, who don't agree with exactly the same thing that I do. Where do you want me to move? Antarctica?

It's not history, it's stereotyping. Other states wrest with these problems too and engage in policies that go against illegal immigration, yet Arizona is being singled out just because of this law. Why this interest? It's annoying.

You missed my point entirely. I was saying that you seem to be associating yourself with the Arizona government for some reason, and are taking it personally that people are calling them on being thinly veiled racists. Stop associating yourself with people who you disagree with simply because you were unfortunate enough to be in the same general geographic area as them. Crying stereotyping when theres plenty of evidence it's not a one off incident is a bit silly, and honestly I'm not sure why you're defending people that you admit don't hold the same values as you do. When people say something about Arizona the state, they aren't talking about you specifically just because you happen to live there. They're talking about the government and civil leaders.

Also: I'm going to assume you didn't actually read any of those links I posted? They took me all of 5 minutes to find and show a history of Arizona having the official attitude of being racist against people south of the boarder (and being stupid when it comes to your own president because he's not white). For example, one of the links talks about Arizona's new law (or proposed law, I forget) whereby anyone who even looks like an 'immigrant' can be stopped randomly in the street by police. And all legal immigrants have to carry specific immigrant ID cards... 

Other states engage in the same policies as Arizona because they follow Arizona's lead. I found more than a few articles talking about how the other heavily anti-immigration states are just copycat policies from Arizona. I'd post the links here but you wont bother reading them...
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Zifnab

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Re: Arizona To-Be-Law Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2010, 08:50:35 am »

For example, one of the links talks about Arizona's new law (or proposed law, I forget) whereby anyone who even looks like an 'immigrant' can be stopped randomly in the street by police. And all legal immigrants have to carry specific immigrant ID cards... 

Other states engage in the same policies as Arizona because they follow Arizona's lead. I found more than a few articles talking about how the other heavily anti-immigration states are just copycat policies from Arizona. I'd post the links here but you wont bother reading them...

The stopping randomly on the street thing is not true.  You need the police to stop you for some other offence to check your status.  And the federal government already requires all immigrants to carry their papers/ID card at all times.  Its just not enforced consistantly.  All the Arizona immigration law does is authorize state police to enforce what the federal government should have been doing for years.

Here is a link to the immigration law that was already passed.  Its only 17 pages, so not a long read
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Now this proposed citizenship bill....this one is potentially unconstitutional.  If it passes, it will probably come down to the Supreme Court's decision.
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Jreengus

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2010, 08:59:38 am »

People wouldn't become illegal immigrants if it wasn't so damn hard to get in legally.
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Zifnab

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2010, 09:19:24 am »

People wouldn't become illegal immigrants if it wasn't so damn hard to get in legally.

Right.  Which is why immigration reform is needed.  But while reforms are being worked on we don't need to stop enforcing the law.  If anything stories like this:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/
show that the borders need to get locked down.  Because its not just people looking to find work that come across the border.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2010, 09:56:51 am »

Quote
You missed my point entirely. I was saying that you seem to be associating yourself with the Arizona government for some reason, and are taking it personally that people are calling them on being thinly veiled racists. Stop associating yourself with people who you disagree with simply because you were unfortunate enough to be in the same general geographic area as them.

...

I'm not even going to bother talking to you, as apparently, you don't seem to understand the idea that you CAN'T disassociate yourself from a state that you happen to live in. That's insane. You're telling me to not-associate with my friends, my family, the taxpayers who paid for my education and government services, and that's just stupid.

I didn't read those links because I'm "familiar" with the incidents in question. I just feel that Arizona is getting singled out while other states are ignored.

I might as well leave this thread though. No reason to get in an argument with high tempers.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 09:59:20 am by Servant Corps »
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CJ1145

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2010, 10:38:41 am »

So Arizona is being stupid and controversial, what else is new? Seriously, these guys have no respect for the rights of human beings. What did the children do to deserve the Arizona governor's unbridled fury? Was his car washed poorly by some Mexican children or something? Is that why he's sworn vengeance upon the entire country?

The children have NO choice on where they're born. If they're born in your state you don't have to sit them in the lap or luxury, but to deny them a home is just wrong.
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Zangi

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2010, 11:44:01 am »

People wouldn't become illegal immigrants if it wasn't so damn hard to get in legally.

Right.  Which is why immigration reform is needed.  But while reforms are being worked on we don't need to stop enforcing the law.  If anything stories like this:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/
show that the borders need to get locked down.  Because its not just people looking to find work that come across the border.
Of course, do nothing, just go straight to enforcement and hope it works enough before doing something.  Can't have it both ways.
Cause I'm sure the federal gov't has done much to move the cogs of reform.
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Zifnab

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2010, 12:02:57 pm »

So Arizona is being stupid and controversial, what else is new? Seriously, these guys have no respect for the rights of human beings. What did the children do to deserve the Arizona governor's unbridled fury? Was his car washed poorly by some Mexican children or something? Is that why he's sworn vengeance upon the entire country?

The children have NO choice on where they're born. If they're born in your state you don't have to sit them in the lap or luxury, but to deny them a home is just wrong.

The governor is a woman.

And if you were a foreign national living in pretty much any country in the world except the United States, your children would not become citizens of that country automatically.  They would have the same nationality as their parents.  Since "illegal immigrants"  are not actually immigrants, but foreign nationals living illegally in a country, this applies to them as well.

So basically what this bill would do when combined with the immigration bill is this:

If you are an illegal immigrant nothing will happen to you until you get stopped by police for some other crime.  Then you might get deported.  What will happen to you is that you will be turned overto the federal authorities and they will decide what to do with you.  Victims and witnesses of crimes are not subject to deportation under this law.

If you have kids, right now they are given American citizenship.  This makes deportation hard, because who wants to break up families.  And its not exactly legal to deport your own citizens.

Under the proposed bill, Arizona would not issue birth certificates to children of illigal immigrants.  Whether they would actually be declined american citizenship is a bit of a gray area.    They could move to another state like say California and be given a postdated birth certificate.  This happens occasionally for people who were born in the middle of nowhere away from a hospital.  Or they could go back to Mexico and do the same thing there.

Really what this bill does is just give more incentive for illegal immigrants to leave Arizona.

People wouldn't become illegal immigrants if it wasn't so damn hard to get in legally.

Right.  Which is why immigration reform is needed.  But while reforms are being worked on we don't need to stop enforcing the law.  If anything stories like this:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/
show that the borders need to get locked down.  Because its not just people looking to find work that come across the border.
Of course, do nothing, just go straight to enforcement and hope it works enough before doing something.  Can't have it both ways.
Cause I'm sure the federal gov't has done much to move the cogs of reform.

Doing nothing is actually the opposite of what I said.  Reform and enforce.  You need to do both.  More specifically you need to crack down on the illegal immigrants and those who employ them while making legal immigration a shorter, less expensive process.  But you still need to have some way to weed out unwanted immigrants like murderers, rapists, terrorism suspects, etc.

Just because I think recreational drug laws are not done well doesn't mean I would support not arresting dealers until reform in the laws happens.  Its the same thing.
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Nikov

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Re: Arizona To-Be-Law Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2010, 12:30:10 pm »

They still are illegal immigrants because they are not recognized as citizens by the reigning government. We used to be, until we killed the natives and toppled their governments. Sneaking in does not grant citizenship.

Exactly.  And if you look at the 14th amendment, which is what is usually cited as to the reason these children are given citizenship, writings by the man who wrote the amendment clearly say that it was intended that at least one parent was either a born citizen or naturalized citizen (immigrant).

To a bill that clarifies an existing legal precedent that children born in the US to illegally immigrated parents are not natural citizens...

There absolutely is no precedent that holds this and it contradicts the direct text of the 14th Amendment. Arguing that somehow Wong Kim Ark stands for the validity of this bill is utterly backwards. Maybe the fact that a child is illegal is somewhat different that Wong Kim Ark but you'd have to argue that on appeal, not start from the automatic presumption that the kid is NOT a citizen.

You want to talk about best interests? It'd be in your best interest to read the actual Constitution. Believe the 14th Amendment goes something like this:

Quote
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Did you manage to comprehend that? If the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is confusing you, try reading Plyer v. Doe or INS v. Rios-Pineda. If you are born in the US you are a citizen unless you are a native American tribe member or the child of foreign government official or someone who otherwise wouldn't be subject to regular American law.

Oh, is it not in Arizona's interest to follow the Constitution? Then maybe they should GTFO of the Union.

Seems like you two need to talk, since if I repeat what I read from Zifnab you blast on me in irrational levels of hatred. And here's a secessionist rearing his ugly head, screaming for Arizona to leave the union. Tsk tsk. I thought we had a war over that.
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fenrif

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2010, 12:59:51 pm »

And if you were a foreign national living in pretty much any country in the world except the United States, your children would not become citizens of that country automatically.  They would have the same nationality as their parents.  Since "illegal immigrants"  are not actually immigrants, but foreign nationals living illegally in a country, this applies to them as well.

America... Fuck yeah! I heard you guys invented freedom and democracy?

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The stopping randomly on the street thing is not true.  You need the police to stop you for some other offence to check your status.  And the federal government already requires all immigrants to carry their papers/ID card at all times.  Its just not enforced consistantly.  All the Arizona immigration law does is authorize state police to enforce what the federal government should have been doing for years.

The bill I was referring too [bold]required[/bold] officers to card anyone "suspicious" to make sure they had their immigration papers on them. It also apparently got passed.

Here and here are two additional links that both talk about how officers are [bold]required[/bold] to check anyone who they suspect of being an immigrant.

I'm not even going to bother talking to you, as apparently, you don't seem to understand the idea that you CAN'T disassociate yourself from a state that you happen to live in. That's insane. You're telling me to not-associate with my friends, my family, the taxpayers who paid for my education and government services, and that's just stupid.

I'm English, but don't associate myself with the things my government does most of the time, because I don't agree with them at all. I'm european, but I don't associate myself with the EU. I'm of this world but I don't associate myself with the united nations. When I lived in California I didn't associate myself with the California government. That doesn't mean I'm disowning my family or friends. You seem to be confusing "living in an area" with "supporting it like a football team." Your friends and family and taxpayers and postman aren't who we're talking about in this thread. We're talking about the people who draft the bills that target specifc groups of people for harassment. But whatever.
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Zifnab

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2010, 01:44:41 pm »

The bill you were referring to is the same bill I am referring to.  Officers are required to card anyone who appears "suspicious" during the lawful stop, detention, or arrest of the person to make sure they had their immigration papers on them.

This means they can't just walk up to someone and ask for their papers.  And if the police try to come up with some phoney excuse to see someone's papers the case can get dismissed at the deportation hearing.

The United States is assumed to have Jus Soli, but the Supreme Court has never ruled on the children of those in the country illegally.  What we do know is this:

If the parents are in the country legally, children are born US citizens  (United States v. Wong Kim Ark)
If the parents are employed in any diplomatic or official capacity of the foreign power to which they are subject, children born are not US citizens.

It would take a ruling by the Supreme Court to actually decide whether or not they are citizens.
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AtomicPaperclip

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2010, 01:51:33 pm »

So Arizona is being stupid and controversial, what else is new? Seriously, these guys have no respect for the rights of human beings. What did the children do to deserve the Arizona governor's unbridled fury? Was his car washed poorly by some Mexican children or something? Is that why he's sworn vengeance upon the entire country?

The children have NO choice on where they're born. If they're born in your state you don't have to sit them in the lap or luxury, but to deny them a home is just wrong.
Thank you for that well-informed, open-minded post.
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fenrif

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Re: Arizona Bill Refuses Citizenship to Illegal Immigrant Children
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2010, 03:05:13 pm »

The bill you were referring to is the same bill I am referring to.  Officers are required to card anyone who appears "suspicious" during the lawful stop, detention, or arrest of the person to make sure they had their immigration papers on them.

This means they can't just walk up to someone and ask for their papers.  And if the police try to come up with some phoney excuse to see someone's papers the case can get dismissed at the deportation hearing.

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

This seems at odds with what you're saying. Plus I'm fairly sure CNN don't just make stuff up for their articles?
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