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[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>we don't build temples per se, but rather sanctidy places of labour as places of worship. Then working is a sort of worship, the higher the skill of the craftdwarf (etc) the more pleased the dwarf. And a natural boon of the god on question could be stats bonii as well as fey moods! ... This seems to blend well with the Dwarf Fortress style, and to not require much rewrite of or additions to the existing model.</STRONG>

Continuing on my own suggestion, just had a thought. As some might know, I consider the best suggestions to DF to be those (0) most in the existing spirit of DF, (1) distinctly dwarvish, and (2) requiring the least changes or additions to the application code.

So thus, what if WE don't assign the places of worship, but rather the dwarves themselves? As they might have a fey mood, they could have a religious revelation and start devoting in their workshop. This would be wonderfully in the spirit of DF! (Especially if a body-hauling dwarf got a morbid fey religious revelation and turned a garbage heap into a garbage heap/shrine to Rotrat the God of Plague and Death).

[Duke 2.0]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>

Continuing on my own suggestion, just had a thought. As some might know, I consider the best suggestions to DF to be those (0) most in the existing spirit of DF, (1) distinctly dwarvish, and (2) requiring the least changes or additions to the application code.

So thus, what if WE don't assign the places of worship, but rather the dwarves themselves? As they might have a fey mood, they could have a religious revelation and start devoting in their workshop. This would be wonderfully in the spirit of DF! (Especially if a body-hauling dwarf got a morbid fey religious revelation and turned a garbage heap into a garbage heap/shrine to Rotrat the God of Plague and Death).</STRONG>

Urist McPriest: Sorry, you cannot use these rooms for forges anymore. I'm claiming this smithing complex in the name of my god of FIRE!
Me: But there isn't anywhere else I could put it! It'll ruin my fort design! Now I'll have to make a magma pipe all the way to a good site with pumps keeping it running! Can't I just make you a room with a nice mosaic?
Urist: Nope, we need to use the most incontinent room possible.
Kogam McPriest: Our god of peace has claimed your outer parapets.
Me: No, I need those for my military dwarves! How will we be able to repel sieges now?
Kogan: With the power of BANJO!

Strange moods are fine, because they take materials that we want to make into valuable stuff anyway and turn 'em into something even MORE valuable. This? It'll take up important rooms.

I say designations is fine.

[Dae]

What if a civil war broke out between Banjo's and Giggles' believers?
I don't want to see this. I prefer to be eaten first.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Duke 2.0:
<STRONG>
Strange moods are fine, because they take materials that we want to make into valuable stuff anyway and turn 'em into something even MORE valuable. This? It'll take up important rooms.

I say designations is fine.</STRONG>

You misunderstand. Read my post above and you'll see that workshops etc aren't converted into shrines, they are also used as places of worship, and places where work doubles as worship.

[Duke 2.0]

So instead of claiming a workshop, they merely crowd around it?

I suppose it would not be too bad. But now I wasted a Banjo joke...

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Willfor:
<STRONG>I will concede that many very minor divine things would be as good as a few very large ones, depending on the world. Though the ability to have it both ways depending on factors at world generation would be pretty neat. Though i will respond to one point here:

They were, yes. Except in DF, you are playing in a mythic world, and thus, they don't have to be relaxed at all. It would be cool to play in world where they were, just it would be cool to play in a world where they weren't. At least, in my opinion.</STRONG>

Let's not forget the Greek gods. Forget to worship Apollon one day? Pestilence strikes your entire city and everyone is destroyed.

Remember to worship Apollon one day? Good for you, except Athena gets jealous and strikes you and your family blind.

Worship Apollon and Athena? Great, except they start to bicker over who you worship more, and they both curse you with stinking boils, blindness, lameness and being turned into half donkey, half snake.

...and then Zeus rapes your wife because, well... he's Zeus.

[Belteshazzar]

I would prefer divinity to not rely solely on the worship of others. Otherwise it makes it to easy to control these gods. Besides it feels to cliche to rip off Forgotten Realms too mutch. Pantheonic wars, however I wan't.

I want to see two gods battle it out for power and supremacy outside my fortress.  
I want hordes of spirits and mortals to fill the fields with blood as two gods cleave their way towards another in wrath.
I want to occasionally unearth a buried god's artifact/temple/still living body and resurrect it with appropriate results (madness/power/being eaten.)
I want to invite Zeus to visit our fine red light district (or accept these virgin "sacrifices") and spawn a dozen or so of demi-immortals to protect the fort (or play as an adventurer)
I want to have the gods make themselves known and felt (through priest, spirit or even avatar)
Some random blessings or if displeased cursing won't hurt the devotion.

[mickel]

It would be interesting with gods that are on such a completely different level that they don't even notice that they're being worshipped. They might percieve fervent mass prayer like we percieve an itch. The mortals worshipping them will percieve it as their prayers are being answered while the deity think it's just scratching itself.

Of course, that's a metadetail that won't be noticeable in the game... But it's a fun thought.

Saay... The dwarves are pretty far above some of the other cave dwellers in power and understanding of the world. Maybe some of the semiintelligent cave dwellers would start worshipping the dwarves? They might percieve the fortress as a paradise and the dwarves as a pantheon of gods.

After all a dwarf fortress is extremely different from a cave. It's warm, dry, bright. It's full of life and activity, full of beautiful objects, there is sound, laughter, music. Strange, unfathomable activity is going on around the clock, and they even tame magma!

Urist Dodôlnek, Stoneworker, cancels Engrave Wall: Recieving offerings.

[Belteshazzar]

Now I am imagining a Human or Dwarven kingdom pulling a British empire on a group of Kobalds, you know for Queen an Country ol' chap. kind of civilize them enough to serve as free labor or soldiers or try the American buying the land for cheap manufactored goods and trinkits.

"We give you many (more than two) felsite drum and shiny tin sword for use all land between mountain and river." Dwarven Noble  "We Kobald think good idea while having no idea of exclusive ownership." Kobald Chief

[Neonivek]

quote: I would prefer divinity to not rely solely on the worship of others

They could also rely on the fulfilment of their domains.

Though perhaps on another level Worship...

I still have that post comming... but I am lazy and can't get me ideas together... Basically gods are empowered in order of least to most important scandal, worship, and tribute but they also have Ego which they need to act outside their area of influence. Temples are always considered inside their influence but being close to an opposing god closes it off.

Other then that high-priests and adventurers of high worth can also be a good foci for the gods power. The god can forgo using their own power by using servants. Particularly well off gods can create servants in a few ways
1) Creation: A god can spawn a creature from nothingness but is by far draining. The god requires their followers aid in the building of such a creature.
2) Ascension/Corruption: A god can spark another creature and bow it to its total whim. They become more powerful but ultimately in the gods control. Gods of Torchure, Jewels, Temptation, or similar domains can obtain this.
3) Demi-god: A god can impregnate a being with their essence to create a servant. The least costly.
-All these have Ego costs if it is outside their domain and/or form.

A god of pregnancy with no Ego doesn't know who they are and cannot fathom outside anything outside their domains because they are too inward. The god would be able to cause pregnancy and other pregnancy miracles but would be unable to do anything further.

A god who has high Ego has another benefit. If people attribute a god to another domain or form they can expand their domain into that area.

For a god to take a location they would need to oust a god which is difficult task as a Location counts as a large temple. After the god is subdued the god would need to Expand his ego and take the area. Locations are by far the greatest domains as they are nearly impossible to take,

The More domains a god has the harder it is for him to collect Ego. Ego is collected though the furthering of your domain and staying within their domain.

This is all I am going to say... as you can tell I am VERY hazy... I need to get my thoughts together. For example there should be more ways to drain Ego, for example affecting anyone who isn't entirely devout should Ego drain you even if it beneficial otherwise.

[Jetman123]

Wow, I had no idea the idea would go this far. Keep up the discussion - I just started the idea, you guys can probably come up with something way better than I could.  

As some have said, we do not know what "Gods" are in this fantasy setting. Are they based on beleif or are they actually there from the beginning of time?

As I see it, there are five options:

1. Gods were always there, you can't make up new ones, and they're extremely powerful whether or not you beleive in them.
2. Gods are just things to beleive in, they don't actually exist in the game world.
3. As 1, but standardize a pantheon of gods for all races for all worlds.
4. Gods are fantasy-like and can grant powers depending on how many people beleive in them. They are creatures of beleif - empowered and given birth to by the fact that the masses beleive in them.
5. Gods existed before the world began - the major gods created the world and the races. However, as per 4, smaller, "minor" gods could spring up as a result of worship and give _much_ smaller effects than the main gods. You'd have two classes of gods - major and minor, and everybody can worship more than one (to different degrees, too)

Personally, I favor 5 (which is probably why I gave it more detail)  

2 is not going to work as it conflicts with certain power goals about deities. I don't think Toady will like the idea of 3 given that each world can be wildly different, I'd think he'd want to keep it that way. 4, as others have pointed out, is a little stereotyped and overused, and would lead to divine magic possibly becoming overpowered. 1 would work, but that would remove religion from a lot of the game - you'd just know how people worship things, and have the occasional holy war, but it will only be _very_ rarely that they ever actually intervene. 5 seems to work, but I'm sure there's a flaw there too that I didn't consider.  

[Mikademus]

I don't know why, but the OP turning up with a "wow, great, let me sum up and add..." post for some reason always tends to kill a thread. Shub-Nuggorath knows I've done it often enought to know... I have no idea how this phenomenon works, though.

[Neonivek]

Well to determine what roll the gods have I guess we should establish what we already know about religion and the gods

1) We know the gods exist in some fashion
2) Gods have genuine interest in the going ons of mortals
3) Gods have forms that they appear in as well as domains
4) Religions attack other Religions for some reason
5) There are powers that are worshipped that may or may not count as gods (Demons and Megabeasts)
6) They can be summoned in some sense
7) They can perform miracles and pernament miracles.
So far they overall are dormant or at least they don't act overtly constantly.
9) There is an underworld and dead demons may also appear there

Some things that may or may not still remain true (got it from the OLD notes)
1) Gods do not have to be intelligent, there are animal like gods
2) gods have areas of influence... possibly limited to their domain
3) There are elemental planes

Things that may change
1) Gods have no mythical servants attributed to them like Valkyries, Angels, or even Demons that appear or do their bidding.

So lets look at your list... 2 is already false unless the belief itself has a power... however it would make sense if "Powers" had the same effect.

Anyhow... so those are some of the things I can dig up on gods in this setting.

[Silverionmox]

If divine magic is reliable, it will just be another part of the economy, an addition to the laws of physics. That's an option, but it will not make a significant contribution to the enjoyability of the game IMHO.

If the idea of divine-power-linked-to-number-of-worshipers is implemented, expect one god to outcompete every other one and attain absolute power. That could be a nice theme for a game, but I think it's generally better to implement negative feedbacks to avoid coming to a boring single lordship. For example: gods can exercise their power only where their believers are, and their powers are proportional to the strength of the belief of their followers. An active god would thus need ardent believers, and therefore cannot expand his action radius too much, lest they don't get their dose of miracles, and their beliefs dilute.

[Jetman123]

That's kinda what I meant. Each god only has a certain amount of power, and while worshippers boost that power, they can't really become omnipotent or outclass every other god. Just have a larger sphere of influence.