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Author Topic: Basic Stuff  (Read 1533 times)

grey666

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Basic Stuff
« on: June 16, 2010, 12:43:59 pm »

There are no prompts in the game to tell me when shit is done.

I.E. - abandon fortress... the game doesn't say hit escape or space bar. It just sits there. Generating a new world - it just sits there, there is no prompt to continue.

Slow - the game is so slow it's impossible to even tell if it's running, let alone when I should hit a key.

I installed that noob installation from dffd.wimbil.com - garbage on my screen. N N N... wtf is that? If you can't build a simple menu in ASCII, then you've got some serious problems.

What happened to the default start group?  I don't remember if that was addon or not, but there should be several default start groups already in the game. It's just common sense. The interface sucks so bad that to build a basic starting group takes an hour - and that's just to try the game. If I want to play Pacman - the game starts instantly, everything is apparent, and the game just works. DF - it takes an hour just to start a game.

Without the addons, this game is literally un-playable. C'mon... seriously.  Make a deal with somebody or make the addons built-in. I won't even try a new release of this game unless all the basic addons are included in the package because the interface sucks so bad.

"What's New" - I would like to come to the web site and see what's new, so I know whether to waste my time or not installing a new version of the game. The notes don't even talk about graphic additions, or speed additions... just bug fixes.

You need a "What's New" forum - basically just quickly describe the advances in the game. Very simple - What's New - quick points on what has changed every release. Takes 2 minutes to update a What's New page. Then we can quickly see the advances, and status and we can decide to play again or not.

It's been about 4 months since I played DF, and this new release was an utter waste of time.

FPS - Since FPS is the third biggest issue with the game since it's inception - just put it on the screen by default so people know if the game is actually running or not.

1st biggest issue with the game - graphics - still sucks.

2nd biggest issue with the game - interface - still sucks.

If I wanted a PH.D. in games, DF would rock - it's challenging just to get started. I don't want to go to college, I just want to play a game.

I actually love this game.. I love it. It's so insanely original and deep - it's brilliant. I love it! Just please, for the love of god, listen to people.

So it took me 2 hours just to start a game today. I downloaded the noob pack, setup shortcuts to the addons and stuff, generated a new world - no starting group - that sucked. I had to restart... graphics suck, I had to modify the startup script to double the graphics size, restart... then I forgot an extra pick, restart, then I finally got to play, but the game was so slow I couldn't tell if it was actually running. With 7 doorfs. Web - study the options for graphics. Modify - test... retest, retest...

I want to see you guys succeed, my comments are harsh. It's for the best.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 12:57:00 pm by grey666 »
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Rowanas

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 12:50:46 pm »

If you don't like it
There are less challenging games
Go try one of them

Graphics packs exist
Go and try one of those out
Mayday's is quite good

A personal note -
The interface needs work, yes.
Don't be such a noob.
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grey666

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 01:00:25 pm »

I got the Lazy Noob Pack - http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2485

Because I won't even play this game without dwarf therapist, it's ridiculous.

I like Mayday big time - best ever. But don't see a new version including Mayday. Why isn't there a new version that includes Mayday? Everyone likes Mayday, so why isn't it built in?

I'm not noob, that's the point - I've played the game for a month, and I know how to configure everything, I know how to add graphics packs and shit - BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO KNOW THIS.
If you don't like it
There are less challenging games
Go try one of them

Graphics packs exist
Go and try one of those out
Mayday's is quite good

A personal note -
The interface needs work, yes.
Don't be such a noob.
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Cespinarve

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 03:40:23 pm »

So it took me 2 hours just to start a game today. I downloaded the noob pack, setup shortcuts to the addons and stuff, generated a new world - no starting group - that sucked. I had to restart... graphics suck, I had to modify the startup script to double the graphics size, restart... then I forgot an extra pick, restart, then I finally got to play, but the game was so slow I couldn't tell if it was actually running. With 7 doorfs. Web - study the options for graphics. Modify - test... retest, retest...

2 hours to start a game? It took me about 15 hours, crossing over between my Mac and Windows partitions, struggling with huge crashes and freezing, and then my quixotic desire to generate a world with 4000+ of history... let's... let's not get into that one too much, painful memories.

Anyways, two hours seems pitiful to moi. Plus, I'm am confused as too whom this post is addressing. You say "you guys" as if there was a large group of coders diligently working away, as opposed to just Toady and a few people assisting with OpenGL implementation and the like.
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 03:50:14 pm »

This game is just 1/3 done. That is--- it is only 31% towards being done! You want to bitch, go to Stardock and bitch about their Elemental. It's (going to be) a great game, and IT is about 40% done at this time. It's just gotten above DF in "newb" friendliness--- and it will be out by this holiday season (Stardock lets pre-orders PLAY WITH THE ALPHA CODE. Elemental has been available to pre-order players for over a year now!)

DF is years and years and years away from being near complete. Until then, it's going to suck on the interface front.

I don't use MayDay, so it would be a waste. In fact, I don't like the tilesets. I don't find them as good at communicating what's on screen as the base ascii. More power to you if you like it, but you shouldn't be bleeding all over the forum because YOU AREN'T A NEWBIE SO YOU ALREADY KNOW THE SCORE!

If you aren't ever going to play DF until it is ready for you--- bye! See you in your next life! Otherwise--- no point whining about things that aren't due to get any Toady love until the game is ALMOST COMPLETE (according to Toady's stated plans).

The one good suggestion you had is the "please include basic starting parties". That's an excellent suggestion. FPS on screen is a waste most of the time, but being able to set or unset that from INSIDE DF would be a good idea.

Generating a new world has a LOT of screen output, so a dynamic status wouldn't have much value there other than in a couple of phases. However, SAVING the game (whether normal save or abandon) would benefit from a dynamic status.

And it doesn't take 2 hours to do all of that--- if you have a machine that is just 2 years old or even newer. My machine is 2 years old, and generates new worlds in less than 5 minutes. I make my starting parties in less than 7 minutes--- under 4 if I am not doing something signficantly different from my preferred start up.

Sorry Grey666, I know you are just blowing off steam--- but as a non-new player to DF, you know the game isn't even half way done yet, and you probably know that Toady isn't going to seriously get around to the interface issues until the game is mostly complete. And we are very, very, very far that. You'll just need to be a bit dwarvenly about it until it gets further along.
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snelg

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 04:01:27 pm »

I think most people here will agree that the interface leaves a lot to be desired. And it would be nice if the time between downloading the game and embarking could be made shorter. I'm mostly thinking about the trouble of installing a graphics pack/tileset and configuring the init. Toady has mentioned several times that he is aware of the lacking interface and that it will be updated sometime in the future. The problem being that as more things get added the interface will need to be able to deal with it. Or it will become a mess again.

Um... basically, I agree with most of the things, but can live with it for now because the game is great and I know my way around it already.
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Virex

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 05:16:51 pm »

I think most people here will agree that the interface leaves a lot to be desired.


I thought last time we had this discussion 3/4 of the people said they were in love with the interface?
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grey666

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 05:35:48 pm »

Ok, first of all I'm not suggesting Toady works another 6 months to accomplish anything.

It's 10 minutes.

1. Make some basic startup configurations - I had an addon that did this, it was a simple text file.
2. Include Dwarf Therapist in the game.
3. Include Mayday in the game.
4. Double the tile size by default - nobody can even see that shit by default.

Improving the graphics and interface can come later...

I'm not bashing the game, the game rocks. I'm suggesting minor changes that can improve playability for EVERYONE, even noobs - 10 minutes to accomplish these things I listed above. That's all.

*Note* I guess it was Mayday that included the starting setup stuff... Why not just included that in the game? It's fun to configure a group after you know what you need, but for noobs - just have a startup option so we can play the game.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 05:45:53 pm by grey666 »
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smjjames

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 05:41:04 pm »

Ok, first of all I'm not suggesting Toady works another 6 months to accomplish anything.

It's 10 minutes.

1. Make some basic startup configurations - I had an addon that did this, it was a simple text file.
2. Include Dwarf Therapist in the game.
3. Include Mayday in the game.
4. Double the tile size by default - nobody can even see that shit by default.

Improving the graphics and interface can come later...

I'm not bashing the game, the game rocks. I'm suggesting minor changes that can improve playability for EVERYONE, even noobs - 10 minutes to accomplish these things I listed above. That's all.

1. Not sure what you're talking about.

2. I would be all for this.

3. We shouldn't force a particular non-official graphics pack onto people.

4. It depends on the tileset really, but the zoom function and resizing the window like you would a browser window helps here.
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grey666

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 05:49:52 pm »

The Mayday Universal startup configuration - I loaded an old version and found out what it was.

It's a simple text file that includes basic starting instructions. Originally I created several for each type of embarkment... attack, defense, build, food....

It's so simple ... but I just re-installed the game and I had to spend 30 minutes preparing to embark... what noob is gonna know what to use?

Just include Mayday... that's a major part of my frustration - I can't find a new version of this game with Mayday and Dwarf Therapist. Fix the default tileset settings... Just fucking make the game work, that's all.

There was a really cool thing in 40d16 - The Mayday release, it was probably accidental. The basic starting location was wicked. The Mayday release included a pre-built world. But you needed an attack startup configuration. It was so badass. I had so much fun with that... I just kept starting new games over and over, and building quick defenses... my doorfs had weapons and shit. It was amazing.  You start near a cliff, with all kinds of antmen and monsters... it was AWESOME!

Why can't the game have a pre-configured world with startup options ?????

I just installed a new version - built a new world, no fun.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:13:52 pm by grey666 »
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timmeh

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 05:56:44 pm »

It took me about 10 minutes tops to set up my first embark group... maybe 15-20 if you count time planning it while checking out the different skills on the wiki.  Now, admittedly, I have a fairly fast computer, so I can alt+tab between the game and the wiki quickly, but it's not like it doesn't have a windowed mode.  How difficult is it really to use the arrow keys and +/- to set stats for 7 dwarves?  And it already has basic items, food, drink, etc selected for you....  I think there are (or at least were, may not be there now) pages on the wiki specifying some good starting builds.  In all reality, it's not that much more complicated than say creating a character in Oblivion, and actually simpler, IMO, than creating a character for D&D or something.

That point aside, I would like more feedback on what's going on when abandoning, saving, etc.  The world building already has a lot of feedback though, it says on the left side of the screen exactly what's happening.  I can't speak on the n00b installer, I just downloaded from Mayday's website the first time, and then got utilities later, as I needed them (How many newbie fortresses get populated enough to need DT?)  If I want to play Pacman, I play for maybe 10-15 minutes, if I'm really bored, I start DF and can play for hours... there's a difference in complexity, and there's a price in the learning curve (which is admittedly steeper than it has to be).

As far as what's new, at the moment it is pretty much just bug fixes.  If you're that eager to see new features and news, use the RSS feed.  The graphics aren't that hard to set up tiles for, and graphics support is actually fairly high on the future feature voting thing if I remember correctly.  The interface is complex, but there so much that can be done, it really can't be simplified much without perhaps some subcategories for buildings and designations, or adding full-blown mouse support. 

As far as the speed, I can't help you much there, but it seems to run fine on my 2GHz single core, 2GB Ram machine, at about 50-75 FPS on a fortress with upwards of 30 creatures (mostly animals, so if I caged them it'd be closer to 80-100 fps).  I think there's some information on the wiki about optimizing the frame-rate, so you don't have to figure it out through trial and error.


As far as the new stuff:
1.  Some basic embark options would be great, except that you never know ahead of time what foods, metals, etc a civ is going to have access to, so making static embark settings only half-works.
2.  I would be all for having it as an option, or linked from the main page, but again, most brand new players don't need to be trying to run a second application on top of figuring out DF, only to manage 7 dwarves.
3.  I agree with smjjames here, besides, you can already download DF bundled with Mayday elsewhere.  Now, I wouldn't oppose a link to Mayday's site from the main page or something.
4.  Zooming works, or perhaps just including a second version of the default tileset, only slightly larger.


I think the majority of newbie problems could be alleviated by a "New Players" page on the DF website.  Some links to DT, Mayday, the wiki, etc, perhaps a short blurb of advice or something.
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grey666

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 06:03:10 pm »

No, you can't download DF with Mayday already bundled - that's probably 75% of my frustration. The other 25% of my frustration is that I can't download the game bundled with Mayday AND Dwarf Therapist - Which is a must have.

When I discovered Dwarf Therapist originally - 4 months ago, I nearly shit my pants, it was that awesome.

I check dffd like every two weeks - I try to find out how the game is progressing, should I try it again?

Here...

1. Did the speed increase so that I can play the game with more than 100 doorfs?
2. Where can I download the game with Mayday and Dwarf Therapist?

That's what I need. Because I don't want to spend a week building shit only to discover the game slows to 10 FPS after I get 100 doorfs. And I don't want to spend an hour configuring shit and testing shit and starting the game.

The first time I played the game, I spent 100 hours just watching tutorials, configuring the embark options... and then the game slowed to 10 FPS after I got 100 doorfs. I bought a desktop computer - a dual core - it wouldn't run the fucking game either. It was 20 FPS. After a month of playing this game, my dwarf fortress no longer works.

So I went to check out the new release - No Mayday, No Dwarf Therapist... I been watching the downloads... finally someone included Dwarf Therapist... so I snagged it. 2 hours just to test it. No way it will run with 100 doorfs, it barely runs with 7 doorfs.

My saved games are not compatible. There is no release of the game which includes Mayday AND Dwarf Therapist. There isn't one. I don't want to spend a day trying to make this game work. I just want it to work when I download it and I don't want the game to die after I get 100 doorfs.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:23:53 pm by grey666 »
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grey666

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 06:18:15 pm »

Ok the game allows you to configure startup options and save them. Why not include several startup configurations with the game?

The Mayday release 4 months ago had a UNIVERSAL MAYDAY startup - which was great, that's what I'm asking for.

Include Mayday and the startup scripts.
Include the tileset - double sized.
Include Dwarf Therapist - a must have
Fix the graphics shit so that I can play with more than 100 doorfs.

You have no idea how frustrating it is to spend a month figuring out this game only to have it die after 100 doorfs. 10 FPS. 20 FPS on my dual core machine... saved files are not compatible with new releases. New releases don't include Mayday and Dwarf Therapist.

Ok, you guys made $12k in May - you can buy the Mayday tileset. You can include it in the game.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:34:08 pm by grey666 »
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Virex

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 06:35:16 pm »

How difficult is it really to use the arrow keys and +/- to set stats for 7 dwarves? 

It could just be that I want to go to fast, but my wrist can feel strained after setting up an embark profile, mainly because the list of skills is so damn long. Mouse-based selection wouldn't hurt there (but maybe I'm a heretic for even thinking about using the mouse).


Also in b4 "lol learn ASCII or GTFO noob"
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sonerohi

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Re: Basic Stuff
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 07:07:19 pm »

I won't do the "lol learn ASCII or gtfo" thing, but I would say that it is stupid to make Mayday the default. You'll run into problems and complainers no matter default graphics are, so why should they change?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 07:12:28 pm by sonerohi »
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