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Author Topic: Insane invasions  (Read 5011 times)

Ataldu

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Insane invasions
« on: June 16, 2010, 02:12:34 am »

Hi, longtime lurker firstime poster.... be gentle.

I have been playing ye olde 40d version for some time and had a great amount of fun with it. When .31 came out I immediately switched, changing to the newer update every single time. My main problem lies with invasions however. In 40d I could always deal with them thanks to my uberchampions of deadly doom. In 0.31 my dwarves seem marginally competent, in so far that groundhogs are not really a threat. Goblins however seem to be slightly better then dwarves in a 1 on 1 situation... and tend to come in insane hordes.

With this I mean the following....
Frenzyworked was a nice little startup fort of just 80 dwarves. They had settled in comfortably and a total of 8 craftsdwarf workshops churned out cheap tourist rubble with the idea that rock would never run out anyway. A military had just been started up, 7 dwarves that had no direct work experience and were therefore drafted into the dwarven outer defence outfit: Dodo. Two of these dwarves got a full steel set of armor including a nice and shiny steel axe. The rest got to be happy with bronze equivalents.
I had set up a nice double trap corridor, each starting with 3 cage traps, followed by 3 weapontraps with 10 bronze axes each. The dwarves felt content and safe, knowing that they could produce endless useless stone drivel for the humans and elves to drool simplisticly over. These tourist paraphenalia sold well enough to start my own animal defenceforce, also known as "The fighting zoo". It consisted of 40, yes 40 war dogs, who since the new patch actually do something (3 dead cougars). These 40 dogs were assisted by their fearless general Bob the war grizzly and his luitenants the 3 war tigers. All in all my defence seemed capable.

This is where the goblin siege shows up. Well, more like sieges. One warning was sent out, a vile force of darkness has arrived! Looking at the unit list I see...... 9 pages of goblins, most of them mounted on cave crawlers, accompanied by a sizeable amount of building destroyer trolls.. Yay, this looks very manageable...

Seeing how I had not yet encountered a single ambush or siege, I had felt safe behind my traps, and the moat was still a future project for when everything became a bit more difficult... I tried to up my defences, by having everybody quickly flood the rest of the forest with stonefall traps  (There were tons of mechanisms and rocks lying about). A great horn was sounded along with yells of "Unleash the war zoo!" But to no avail... the trolls smashed my gates... the goblins swarmed in... 6 goblins were captured, several were diced by the weapontraps, the rocks smashed a few more... My combat zoo killed a few... my military pretty much just died.... (Did dwarves get that much weaker compared to goblins since 40d?) and then my fortress was overrun and slaughtered by about 60 goblins killing and plundering as much as their little minds could bear..


I felt somewhat cheated... No warning, no single ambush thief or kidnapping, nope, just one big huge punitive expedition that razed my entire fortress to the ground with no chance of living.
To add insult to injury, my last dwarf was killed by a "Troll animal dissector"


My question to you, is this just a bug or are hordes upon hordes to arrive at once? And is it normal for a goblin to be that much better at war than a dwarf? (Full steel armor, hoods cloaks and socks, shield and axe well trained and still gets well, surprise loved to death by a goblin in bronze.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 02:42:01 am by Ataldu »
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parlor_tricks

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 02:45:29 am »

Did your dwarves do anything dwarfy while they died?
By the way - that sounds like a pretty epic slaughter.

The goblins realise that your 'tourist' fort is just a precursor to them getting well and truly ******-up by the inevitable fun metal wearing midget death machines that will walk out of your gates. Unless they crushed you early on.

Apparently your Goblin's have a real leader who knows what it means to be a goblin in dwarf fortress. The average forum player is a vicious, sadistic, cruel, heartless god (:D)  orchestrating a never ending sacrifice of goblins in the most perverse ways available in the DF universe. He just used appropriate force to deal with a dwarf fortress.

You really have only one course of action now.
You must reclaim and capture the Goblin leader. Then cage him at the bottom of a 100z drop. Then drop his minions on his cage.
Let him watch his entire civilization rot into bones in front of him.
Then drop him on a pile of *Goblin Skull Totems*.
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Ataldu

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 02:52:10 am »

Well I had already planned my goblin doompit.... I dug a stairwell 10 z levels deep, and then a bit apart from it started digging a channel/pit also 10 z levels deep. This with the idea to make an underground arena. The dwarves would get to walk down, wait in their preparation room. The goblins would arrive in my main arena part.... rather more suddenly (And ofcourse stripped beforehand). However while digging the pit, right at z level -10 the miner suddenly dissapeared. He had breached a cave system that went another 10 levels down...... Ah well. I still had a goblin disposal pit, just no underground arena as planned.

As for my dwarves doing anything dwarfy... sadly no. Their glory was well and truly eclipsed by the bravery and fighting spirit of the combat zoo. Bob will always be remembered, for his leadership and his personal prowess.

The steelclad migdget deathmachines and their bronzeplated brethren just stood there and got slaughtered. I did not even notice one as much as scratch a goblin with their axes before being absolutely torn apart. Perhaps it was just the insane numeric difference. After they had dealt with the fighting zoo and traps the goblins still had more than 5 pages of invaders to butcher my 7 man squad.
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Shiv

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 03:17:16 am »

Hmm, didn't know they could all just come at once like that.  It always seemed progressive to me.  In other words:  a unit of say, 8 goblins shows up in the first siege, then in the second siege two units, then three, and so on until it's just overwhelming or you shut yourself off to the world. 
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Cruxador

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 03:28:18 am »

Sounds like Fun! I've lost a fort to goblins too. I'm not sure what's changed, besides the re-balancing inherent in the rewrites, but I'm having a lot of Fun, so it's great!
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Trowzers

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 03:30:18 am »

That also happened in my fortress - not even a thief, then suddenly a full siege.  Thankfully my first seige was only one squad of mounted goblins, so we had a practise run before the next year, where they seiged twice in a season, both times with many,many mounted squads and trolls (or it may have been one in very late autumn, and one in midautumn, but in any case I didn't have any time to clean up anything before the next one arrived).  However my 10man team of dwarves in a mixture of steel, bronze (and even a little bit of iron and copper) dealt with them easily, despite me only having a moderate amount of stone traps before the entrance, and no bridge traps and only a small amount of war animals.  However, they'd all been training for at least a few years and were pretty epic even before they got to kill anything.  Could that be the difference?
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parlor_tricks

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 03:53:32 am »

You can never have enough war bears.
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Halo

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 06:52:09 am »

It seems to really vary from fort to fort (or gobbo civ to gobbo civ). My current fort I've had a few sieges, nothing really that scary, 2, maybe 3 squads, easily dispatched. In the most recent siege the "general" showed up, a human no less. He didn't seem like much of a leader to me, no armor, no weapons, just a dude. He, of course retreated. In 7 years I've gotten maybe 4 sieges total, and the leader has only showed up in the last one.

My last fort was bloody insane. My first siege was ok, one or two squads, but they were on flying bats. I was still finishing them off when....surprise! Another siege. Not 9 pages worth, but it was huge, and all my traps were sprung from the first siege. That was one of the more epic DF days. It ended with 4 military dorfs left. The commander was going nuts chopping the limbs off of everything that tried to run out of the front door, while two axedorfs fought back to back in the hallway, protecting the body of their wounded captain (he died later, bloody soap. No less heroic though!). This time the gobbo leader was a [clown], and he showed up for every single siege except the first easy one, getting closer and closer to the fort until he finally engaged my forces. In the first 4 years of this fort, I got maybe 6 or 7 sieges total. It was pretty vicious.

First off more traps! To get into my fort they have to get past a dozen cage traps and a dozen weapon traps minimum, generally a lot more, depending on the layout of the fort. I tend to have more than enough traps setup, mostly to feed into my punishment chambers/arena, then I can use them if I want, or send dorfs out to murder them first hand if I don't.

As for the military, training and armor are key. You have to inspect and make sure every dorf is properly equipped. They are notorious for going out wearing only one boot or one gauntlet, then what they get their foot/hand chopped off, they freak out, stop fighting and die. In any 1v1 combat, whoever draws first blood is going to win 95% of the time.

Shield training is bugged right now, so you cannot train up shield skills and weapon skills at the same time. As such, I setup my dorfs with a shield and let them swing it around in the barracks for awhile before giving them an axe and letting them actually do some fighting. Armor skills seems really hit and miss too, but I don't know how to make them train that up. Make sure your dorfs are doing individual combat drills in their downtime too, since that is the only way to get them to train currently. Just setup a barracks and make sure each squad is assigned to train there, and turn off all labors for those dorfs.

If they're encased in steel, using axes, and have some training, they can easily take out gobbos, even a force many times larger.
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lanceleoghauni

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 08:09:41 am »

I find it saddening that the only competitive weapon is the Axe.
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TheMirth

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 09:56:00 am »

Swords also work well, it's more a case of bludgeoning being broken and bleeding being the primary cause of death than only axes working.
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Indricotherium

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 10:51:44 am »

Quote
I find it saddening that the only competitive weapon is the Axe.

Not completely so, my friend. I let my dwarfs have their choice of weapon, as long as it's melee, and my militia commander chose a bronze whip. Versus the gigantic feathered winged snail FB who attacked recently he bruised its heart with that whip. Yes, against metal armoured foes his attacks are often deflected but he attacks very, very quickly and has taken ears off several times. I have axedwarfs, pickdwarfs, speardwarfs, sworddwarfs, hammerdwarfs and a single morningstardwarf. They all get their licks in in their own way. I do admit the axedwarfs often get the final blow but I still like the variety.

I also use a 3 dwarf squad approach, with currently 6 squads (with one of them assigned all the war animals), so I can better direct appropriate weapons against appropriate foes.
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That is a wasteful idea that recklessly endangers life. I applaud your genius!
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Hyndis

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 11:12:48 am »

I also use combined arms. I find combined arms to make for a very useful and effective military. Blunt weapons maim and cripple, edged weapons finish them off. Your dwarves with maces or hammers smash limbs and render the goblin unable to do anything, and then the axes come in and finish them off.
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DarthCloakedDwarf

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 11:20:19 am »

You see, the reason goblins are so dangerous is that they attack eight times faster than dwarves.

Dwarf in armor: *CHOP!*
Goblin in armor: Ow! *hackhackhackhackhackhackhackhack*
Dwarf in armor: *has no limbs and is bleeding horrifically*
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Terisuke

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 12:00:50 pm »

You see, the reason goblins are so dangerous is that they attack eight times faster than dwarves.

Dwarf in armor: *CHOP!*
Goblin in armor: Ow! *hackhackhackhackhackhackhackhack*
Dwarf in armor: *has no limbs and is bleeding horrifically*

See, that's not at all how it's supposed to go.

Dwarf in armor: Ah, I'm so glad that my civilization is more industrious than the gobbos.  This means my armor and weapons are of a highly superior quality.
Gobbo in armor: SHINY DORF LOOK BETTER IN RED
DiA: *CHOP*

-Goblin loses hold of {(iron shield)}!
-The Axedwarf hacks at the Goblins left upper arm with his ☼Adamantine Battle Axe☼ and the part sails off in a bloody arc!

GiA: OMG WTF. *CHOP*

-The Goblin hacks at the Axedwarf with his {(iron short sword)}, but the attack is deflected by the Axedwarf's ☼Adamantine Breastplate☼!

DiA: Lolwut.



THAT is dwarven combat.  Tactical superiority through shiny blue armor.
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DarthCloakedDwarf

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Re: Insane invasions
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 12:09:52 pm »

You see, the reason goblins are so dangerous is that they attack eight times faster than dwarves.

Dwarf in armor: *CHOP!*
Goblin in armor: Ow! *hackhackhackhackhackhackhackhack*
Dwarf in armor: *has no limbs and is bleeding horrifically*

See, that's not at all how it's supposed to go.

Dwarf in armor: Ah, I'm so glad that my civilization is more industrious than the gobbos.  This means my armor and weapons are of a highly superior quality.
Gobbo in armor: SHINY DORF LOOK BETTER IN RED
DiA: *CHOP*

-Goblin loses hold of {(iron shield)}!
-The Axedwarf hacks at the Goblins left upper arm with his ☼Adamantine Battle Axe☼ and the part sails off in a bloody arc!

GiA: OMG WTF. *CHOP*

-The Goblin hacks at the Axedwarf with his {(iron short sword)}, but the attack is deflected by the Axedwarf's ☼Adamantine Breastplate☼!

DiA: Lolwut.



THAT is dwarven combat.  Tactical superiority through shiny blue armor.
Except the blue stuff means a two front battle-- finite numbers of goblins in iron on one side, and flying trapavoid elephant demons on the other.

I think I'll take the gobbos.
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Yes. Clearly a bug that ought to be fixed in the future, but exploit it in the meantime.

Aescula: *snerk*  Just thought of a picture I saw a long tome ago...
Darth Guy: A long, long tome ago, in a library far, far away?
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