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[gurra_geban]

Ok, many of you will probably hate me for this. But alas, it needs to be said!

Late game dwarves are too powerful, they need more limits!
Ever had this 1 Champion with maxed stats wiping out a whole goblin siege, or the smith who chruns through 100 steel bars as it wasn't even there. I think it's slightly lame to have such overpowered all-round heroes.

Ok, heroism isn't all bad, but still i think dwarves need limits, and i think 1 maxed out stat or skill is enough for any dwarf to be considered an asset to my fort.

So here is my suggestions:
1: Limit all dwarves to 10 stat increases, instead of having 15. Special dwarves with lower or higher stat gain limit should also exist, but be very rare. This way a dwarf may reach max level in one stat and very high in the other two, or have balanced great stats.
Also i would like to see that agility doesn't affect stat gains, as a dwarf with maxed agility gains stats 3x as fast as a dwarf with maxed strength. Instead of basing stat gains on how many jobs are completed, base them on time spent working. Also, i would like to see stat gains slightly slower then the rate no-good peasants get them. I would also personally like to see that hauling jobs increase stats, as hauling golden statues aren't that simple.
Why the stat changes? Realism! Dwarves in general can't become maxed out in all stats, and those who can should be very rare. This adds some more "epic" to your truly great dwarves.

2: Limit the amount of skill gains a dwarf can get, all dwarves shouldn't be able to get legendary at everything!
Right now legendary dwarves are totally awesome! This is good, i really like the legendaries, but they become too many after as fast as 4 years.
Legendary dwarves should be few, but invaluable as they are today. Although i would like to see that all dwarves cannot reach legendary skill, so they become more of a rarity.
As for the fey moods, i think they should increase the skill of the creator by some increases depending on the worth of the artifact. This way crappy artifacts might promote to legendary depending on the skill the crafter had before he made it, but not always. I also think the same dwarf should be able to construct several artifacts, but this should also be very rare.

That would be all for me, please discuss/ask questions

[ May 29, 2008: Message edited by: gurra_geban ]

[Capntastic]

If adventurers can do it, why not dwarves?   I don't think this is something that needs to be worked on right now.    It makes sense that a legendary swordsdwarf can in fact, with proper weapons and armor, take out a squad of goblins.

[Wiles]

I think it would be more interesting if the goblins found out you had a legendary champion that they'd send one of their own.

[umiman]

Yeah. Nerfing is bad.

If anything, just make everything else stronger. Like, 15 times stronger. Heck, make it a hundred. Your legendary dwarf can take anything the world can throw at him, so make those goblins, building-destroying, fire-breathing, size:20, damblock:10, melee damage:20.

Then up the size of every other creature by 5 and put [likes_fighting] on all of 'em. It'll make your game much more fun.

[Neonivek]

Alright... Ill go through this with my No face.

Get ready for Rant...

1) The exact numbers are completely superfluous... As it is simply that the Goblins are unskilled and rely on huge numbers. Even then watch as your all champion army dies from certain Megabeasts, Spirits of Fire, Giant Cave Spiders, or Blind unskilled Goblin Archers. If Goblins attacked with Master or higher skill as a whole they would be giving you a run for your money.

In truth the Goblins need to be able to actually siege you and break your walls and perhaps tunnel into your base, as their numbers at the later parts of the game is already more then enough to tire your army, spring all your traps, and simply bowl over the rest of your population. Maybe if they attacked with more skilled troops as well.

2) This is the only one I strongly object to... I dislike games constant fudging of Paragons. "Ohh you can be good at combat but you suck at magic", "Ohh you can speak well but you are a bad cook", and a bunch of other stuff... LEAVE THIS ALONE!!! I want my Legendary Miner, Mason, Carpenter, Engineer, Marksmen, Hammerdwarf, Martial artist, and Swimmer all in one.
-Anyhow, so far the skills that raise to Legendary quickly, other then military, are the useless skills anyhow... Legendary Miners are alright but two Miners are still better. While a Legendary Metalsmith is so very vital.
--Artifacts arn't common enough to gripe about and can happen to Dwarves who already have legendary skills. They are also not guarenteed to happen to skillsets you need

----- Now that this is done... here is the Non-Rant version -----

1) 10 or 15 the problem is that goblins tend to only attack you with the first 5-8 levels which being overall ineffective against your traps, channels, and walls. On other notes even Champions seem to be more then capable of being killed by specific Goblins such as Archers.

If Goblins were able to get to the higher skill levels of 10-15, as well as being able to counter the standard player strategies. I am sure it wouldn't be a problem.

2) I respectfully disagree. One of the fun aspects of Dwarf Fortress was that you were never forced to conform to Archtypes and could very well indeed have a multi-skilled Paragon in both Fortress and Adventure mode.

The Skills that tend to become legendary at a decent speed are ones that are generally not as useful such as mining, bonecrafting, and carpentry. While ones that do so slowly are also vital such as Armor and Weapon smithing. This however doesn't apply to Military as these train fast and are also vital, though In my experience they don't raise consistantly.

As for Artifacts. They are fine as they are because of a few aspects
1) They don't always pick important Dwarves and can lead to non-useful Legendary skills
2) It can also pick a dwarf of already legendary skill
3) Artifacts are not as common, having over 10 is a lot.

... Alright... so I have my Rant and polite version... Woosh

[Derakon]

While I don't mind the idea of limiting the stats that dwarves can gain, the idea that dwarves should be simply unable to learn more skills after a certain point is silly. What else are they doing with their time? In reality, once you've learned a given skill to a certain level, it requires only occasional practice to keep high (physical prowess is a different matter). Now, it's arguable if it should be so easy to achieve legendary in the first place, but that's an argument for regulating experience gain, not for just saying "Sorry, you've reached your brain limit for this life; please reincarnate and try again."

[Alenth Eneil]

I think that aging and dying of aging would be a better balance for superdwarves than disabling them.  Especially if there's a degradation to physical stats atfter a certain age, since they can get maxxed out relatively quickly.

But I agree that more skilled enemies would probably be the best and easiest to implement counter to superdwarves.  I'm not sure about goblins tunneling into the fort, but making enemies with a dwarven civilization would certainly be a way to make that sort of thing happen.

Maybe if the elves could attack with megabeasts or mini-megabeasts, and humans with siege equipment.

[Draco18s]

What needs to happen is separate out which attributes get raised when a skill gets experience.  This is the crux of the problem.  That and social skills granting attributes.

[Grek]

Rather than adjust the rate at which stats increase, I'd suggest changing the way skills work and leave stats tied to skills.

Currently, the skill setup is as follows:
Dabbling, Novice, [No label], Competent, Skilled, Proficient, Talented, Adept, Expert, Professional, Accomplished, Great, Master, High Master, Grand Master, Legendary. Number of jobs done is directly proportonal to skill. If a dwarf does something long enough, they will get Legendary, even if they've done nothing but spend a few years making tables. They'll be able to make things at a ridiculous pace, but they aren't realy special.

Instead, it should go
Novice, Proficient, Master, Legendary. All would be in the same place as they are now, but with a few extra requirements.

Novice: No requirements. Someone with enough skill to be a novice would gain a small amount of skill when making conversation with other dwarves that have more skill than them. The dwarf with higher skills gets happy or unhappy thoughts based on their personality.
Proficient: No requirements. Dwarves with proficient will get happy/unhappy thoughts about the amount of work for their skills. Once shop ownership goes in, dwarves that are proficient or more will want to buy a shop.
Master: Requires the total value of the dwarf's masterpeices be above a certain value, set by the relavent guild in the mountainhome they set out from or the local one once those go in. Military get it from killing enemies with 'Order of the Foo' groups. If they don't have enough masterpeices/kills, they cannot get any more skill. That means that the haulers, growers, ash makers, fishers, etc. cannot become more than proficient. This does not disclude brewers as drinks have a hidden quality value.
Legendary: Requires they have a legends screen entry related to their skill. Currently, only artifacts qualify but other things like designing very good bridges and aquaducts, installing mechinisms for above, forging a weapon used by a famous hero, working with a legendary material (named creature/semi-megabeast/megabeast skin/silk/bones/extracts/meat, HFS, certain very high quality gems etc.) and engraving things that get a rendition made of them would also give lengends screen status.

[Neonivek]

If Legends were more useful Id agree

But your just adding more lengths to get a not so useful status.

Man: "Sorry, you can't be a Legendary Miner because you havn't mined in Adamantium yet"
Dwarf: "But it is such a useless skill..."
Man: "I SAID NO!!!"

That and... getting rid of all the skills doesn't matter as they are simply seperations... We could keep all 15 skill levels while having your 5 barriers or Gate Skill Levels of 0, 2, 5, 10, and 15

[Eagleon]

Really, masterful skills are balanced straight away by the pure cruelty of certain parts of the game. A dwarf can die instantly, through any number of means, no matter how buff he is. No ridiculous "hit points"; if they fall in lava, or get trapped underwater, or if a goblin gets in a lucky shot, they are dead. Period.

In any case, there's really no need to "nerf" anything in a single-player game unless it's detracting from the fun. It takes time, effort, and luck to get multi-legendary skilled dwarves, and it's not like having tons of steel goods is going to do you much good when everyone in your fortress turns on each other due to a tantrum spiral. And remember, two releases from the next will have armies invading from civilizations with similar potential.

[Grek]

The main difference between a skilled master miner and a lengendary miner is that the legend gets free food, free rent and free booze.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but the economy is soo messed up as it is

[gurra_geban]

Replying to all posts (i think)

Well, a dwarf stopping in evolving his skills and stats already happens, but they all reach the same level.

What i would like to achieve with this suggestion would be that in late game you would still seek those unique dwarves with the abilities you seek.
Right now, no dwarf is unique if given enough time, except for their personalities though. I mean, it's kind of silly that i have 10 guys legendary at all the metalworking skills, and 10 guys legendary at all farming and so on and so forth. If i gave my fort enough time everyone would be legendary at everything, with maxed stats of course.
The legendary metalsmiths and farmers example i already have at a 7 year old fort. Not to mention the legendary miners, engravers and pump operators i have.

Having to look for those guys with unique abilities would be quite fun i think. And face it, 10 stat increases and 3 master skills still makes a kickass dwarf. Also, you are more impressed when your prodigal soldier rises above the hardened veteran commander in experience, only because he has more potential!

[Neonivek]

Yeah but Dwarves better not get unique in ways that makes other dwarves useless or outdated.

It would be cool if everytime they got to Master and Legendary they would get their "Trademark" ability that no one else gets unless lucky (for every Master and Legendary skill they get they get one)

Adventurers can Quest, Woo, or pay them to divulge that skill.