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Author Topic: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars  (Read 20649 times)

Jackrabbit

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #150 on: July 02, 2010, 10:54:01 pm »

He stopped being dangerous when he became unconscious. Like I said, you cannot make a decision as big as committing murder (and I've included the definition so that you know that killing an unarmed man who cannot possibly threaten you is murder) based on assumption because if assumption allows you to kill an unarmed, unconscious person, could it not be used to justify other crimes? I'd say other, more atrocious crimes but the only crime I can think of that is in fact, more atrocious is mass murder. And hell, if there's more than one guy and you somehow manage to overcome and knock out all of them then proceed to kill them because you don't want to risk taking out your cellphone or calling for help then you're a mass murderer.
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sonerohi

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #151 on: July 02, 2010, 11:14:46 pm »

Which is why you kill him the second he breaks in.
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #152 on: July 02, 2010, 11:32:26 pm »

Murder implies innocent people, these are not. They could have killed me in my sleep. There is no assumption here. When they broke into my house they made the desision to die if I get a hold of them. They made this choice, not me.

Quote
And hell, if there's more than one guy and you somehow manage to overcome and knock out all of them then proceed to kill them because you don't want to risk taking out your cellphone or calling for help then you're a mass murderer.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. They broke into my house. If anything killing a group of people that break into your house is more justified then one as you're in more danger.

Also not robbing someones house is a very easy thing to do. You keep talking about them as unarmed unconcious people, but these are unarmed unconcious people who broke into your house a few minutes ago well armed expecting you to be the one unarmed and unconcious. Dont expect me to turn the other cheek for them.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2010, 01:00:34 am »

Murder does not imply or solely include innocent people. I linked the definition and you still got it wrong. Well done.

I'm not expecting you to turn the other cheek, I'm expecting you to turn them in, because it most certainly is murder if you're killing them at a point in time where they're no threat to you and other options are available. You're essentially killing someone because you're paranoid that you're not going to be able to call for help in time, despite their being no basis to that apart from "oh God what if he wakes up and escapes and runs away before I can call for help from the phone in my pocket/next door neighbors and then tomorrow night he comes back to kill me I obviously have no recourse but to murder him". And really, if someone is both unarmed and unconscious, it doesn't matter if he's Jackie Chan, at that point in time he poses no threat to you and the logical thing to do would be to call for the police. And hey, as long as we're imagining obscure, remote scenarios, here's one that's more likely: the guy has a buddy who's watching his back outside, as many good thieves tend to have, and then he find out you killed his buddy. If you're lucky, he'll go cry in the corner of a bar and badmouth you. If you're unlucky, not only do you have the exact same 'escaped thief on the loose trying to kill you' but the police probably aren't looking for him. There is a possibility of this happening if the burglar gets caught and turned into the police, but the possibility is even more remote.

But like I said, they're both improbable scenarios that the police, people trained to deal with criminals, are prepared to deal with via witness protection programs and the like. These people, who are trained to deal with criminals I'd like to remind you, can take care of the situation non-fatally for all parties involved, most of the time. Why wouldn't you go to them? Oh yeah, because you're worried the man that is unconscious and tied up might suddenly become not unconscious and not tied up and come and kill you, so logically you can't ever, ever use a cellphone or call for help from your front porch or visit a neighbor or any number of things that don't include murder and yet still end with the thief not being a threat to you outside of a remote, improbable chance that your thief can manage to wake up and untie himself and escape and has the stomach for murder and won't think twice about returning to the scene of a crime he was caught at.

Because that's obviously what's going to happen if you leave him alone for even the second it takes to call out your window.
 
Basically, what I'm saying is that the law exists for a reason, to protect people. It will protect you. Paranoia helps no-one and you are not judge, jury and executioner. The man has a right to life, poses no threat to yours outside of worst-case scenarios, like the kind that can occur when you eat dinner (you might choke to death oh God never eat again) and you have the ability to turn him over to the police, quickly and easily. Are you saying you wouldn't, just because all the above might happen? Because that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while.
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #154 on: July 03, 2010, 02:22:41 am »

I disagree. I still think it's risky becuase he could still break free at any time and if he has a friend that makes it a even bigger risk. If he does not run he could strangle you and that's even worse. If you can call the police go ahead but the police dont just appear. By the time they get there it could already be too late.

Also I got the definition right becuase there are more definitions then the one you're using. Sometimes things are not so black and white.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #155 on: July 03, 2010, 02:59:46 am »

But murdering someone 'just in case', how can you justify that? I mean, you admitting that
If you can call the police go ahead but the police dont just appear. By the time they get there it could already be too late.
is baffling. It says to me that you consider calling the police a valid option, but at the same time, you're suggesting that you murder them anyway. How's that going to look once they arrive?

"I know I called you, but I killed him anyway because he might have woken up, escaped and strangled me."

I get that you're eleven and you're probably not going to murder an unarmed, unconscious, tied up man no matter how much you daydream about it, but I get the feeling that you're not taking this seriously. I get that a lot with you. You seem absolutely adamant that you need to take the side that's going to be the most controversial, or just phrase your argument in such a way that people are naturally inclined to disagree with you. I mean, are you just doing this for a laugh? Because if you're trolling me, you've succeeded several times and I really would have to applaud you for it, but I don't think you are. You really baffle me. I just can't get inside your head.

Ah well. Like I said, your opinion does not appear to be one shared people who make these laws. It's rather a moot point anyway.

My position remains unchanged. It is both morally and legally repugnant with no justification outside of paranoia-fulled scenarios that appear to have been envisioned using the same process that someone desperately trying to modify his not very scary ghost story uses (ah, you don't think that's scary, but what if the ghost could do this! Or if this happened! Or if the phone lines were cut!) and is generally an incredibly wasteful and unnecessary way to deal with criminals that undermines the whole point of a legal system. It's stupid, basically. I guess I'm never going to convince you of that, huh? That's okay, I suppose. It won't change anything.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 03:01:34 am by Jackrabbit »
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Soadreqm

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #156 on: July 03, 2010, 03:06:39 am »

The law uses a certain definition. You are free to disagree with the definition of "murder" the government has established, of course, just as the burglars are free to disagree with the definition of "ownership".

Also, the burglars wouldn't really have much reason to kill you in your sleep if they didn't have to worry about being shot without a trial. Worse crimes have worse punishments for a reason, I think.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #157 on: July 03, 2010, 05:45:20 am »

Uh... I'm pretty sure burglers don't normally cut phonelines.  It's a bit of a waste of time unless they're planning on creating some kind of murder mystery inside your house.

And yes, idiots who would kill those breaking in even after they cease to be a threat are exactly the reasons burglers are often violent over there >.<
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DJ

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #158 on: July 03, 2010, 06:59:29 am »

Does *anyone* cut phone lines in the age of cellphone?
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #159 on: July 03, 2010, 10:17:51 am »

Does *anyone* cut phone lines in the age of cellphone?

I've heard it's become increasingly uncommon for homes to even have land lines.  I don't doubt it, either.

I suppose cow's hypothetical burglar must also have fancy jamming equipment.  He probably also cuts your power and has night vision goggles, so he can see you but nobody can see him.  And he's probably a ninja.  And a robot.  Yes, he's a ninja robot.  With a pet bear.  And the bear's a wizard.  So the moment you turn your back the wizard bear will cast a spell to wake up and free his ninja robot master, at which point they will strangle you (apparently).
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #160 on: July 03, 2010, 11:58:21 am »

Yes, he could. Witness protection acts exist...
I find the argument that followed this hilarious. I don't believe anyone would actually believe that an incapacitated burglar tied to a chair could realistically be a threat, but the law requires them to pose a conceivable threat, hence the joke amounts to "I want an excuse to kill him, so I'll make up some outlandish scenario in which he could still threaten me so that I can get away with it".
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Grakelin

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2010, 03:02:10 pm »

I disagree. I still think it's risky becuase he could still break free at any time and if he has a friend that makes it a even bigger risk. If he does not run he could strangle you and that's even worse. If you can call the police go ahead but the police dont just appear. By the time they get there it could already be too late.

Also I got the definition right becuase there are more definitions then the one you're using. Sometimes things are not so black and white.

I find this post funny because shooting a man tied up in your kitchen while the police are on the way really does fall into black and white territory.


Also, my home does not have a land line.
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Zangi

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #162 on: July 03, 2010, 03:58:11 pm »

Don't cut my internets... please?

I have to agree with disagreeing with cowofdoom's assessment of shooting a tied up man.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #163 on: July 03, 2010, 06:01:30 pm »

Yes, he could. Witness protection acts exist...
I find the argument that followed this hilarious. I don't believe anyone would actually believe that an incapacitated burglar tied to a chair could realistically be a threat, but the law requires them to pose a conceivable threat, hence the joke amounts to "I want an excuse to kill him, so I'll make up some outlandish scenario in which he could still threaten me so that I can get away with it".

I presume you're referring to cow. In which case, yeah, I agree. It's ridiculous.
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Sergius

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Re: Homeowners CAN be sued by burglars
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2010, 05:01:24 pm »

Seriously, if you plan to murder a burglar, don't call the police. Chop the body into small bits, stick them into your bathtub and pour acid onto them to dissolve it. You can borrow the acid from your illegal meth lab.
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