Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Medicine Man]

Ammo that can freeze,burn,cause disease to enemies and same with weapons.

[Libelnon]

Would have to wait for magic.

And even then, enchanted weapons? If I remember correctly, dwarves HATE magic.

[Quadricwan]

Magic doesn't really strike me as very dwarfy.  They're little creatures of industry. 

I think it would be much more appealing to one day have more elaborate mechanical contraptions - tesla coil, gunpowder, steam engine, etc.  Now THOSE things seem dwarfy.

[Medicine Man]

Couldn't the elves have magic weapons and ammo?

[NW_Kohaku]

Magic doesn't really strike me as very dwarfy.  They're little creatures of industry. 

I think it would be much more appealing to one day have more elaborate mechanical contraptions - tesla coil, gunpowder, steam engine, etc.  Now THOSE things seem dwarfy.

Making magical items is practically the definition of what a dwarf was in mythology.  The entire fay mood thing is supposed to be a magical inspiration to make a superior item.

Besides, we're not getting tesla coils or steam engines, Toady's been as clear on that as anything.  I really don't like this whole Arcanum-style re-imagining of dwarves as steampunk when it means that somehow dwarves now can't be anything else to some people.

Dwarves are supposed to be magical, if, perhaps, only capable of imbuing magic into their crafts.

[Libelnon]

Magic doesn't really strike me as very dwarfy.  They're little creatures of industry. 

I think it would be much more appealing to one day have more elaborate mechanical contraptions - tesla coil, gunpowder, steam engine, etc.  Now THOSE things seem dwarfy.

Making magical items is practically the definition of what a dwarf was in mythology.  The entire fay mood thing is supposed to be a magical inspiration to make a superior item.

Besides, we're not getting tesla coils or steam engines, Toady's been as clear on that as anything.  I really don't like this whole Arcanum-style re-imagining of dwarves as steampunk when it means that somehow dwarves now can't be anything else to some people.

Dwarves are supposed to be magical, if, perhaps, only capable of imbuing magic into their crafts.

True. But, dwarves have been twisted a fair bit by modern roleplaying and fantasy.

[Rowanas]

Well, back in Norse myth they were the go-to guys if you needed magical stuff made. THor's hammer, anyone? In fact, Mjolnir is an example of what dwarves make when they screw it up!

[Starver]

Dwarfs are magic.  They can dig out (say) 500 tiles and the best of the miners produce nearly 500 stones that can then be dumped into one of those dug-out squares while leaving it perfectly passable, while the worst of them (or a tag-team of inexperienced miners, to avoid anyone gaining too much ability) can reduce it down to a mere handful, with no problems even of dust.

But apart from that, I think of Dwarves as being implicitly magic, not explicit.  They hate the whole hand-wavy, chanting, etc, but the way that the best of them bash away at an iron bar and create an intricate quality goblet may not be entirely due to the more mundane skills.

A metal bolt that does massive damage may be due to a particularly practiced method of serrating the bolt, it could be some intricate mechanism forged within it's shaft that springs out additional barbs once it has struck and penetrated with the target (with armour-piercing bodkin head, where necessary), or it could be an imbued magic.

But you wouldn't catch them actually invoking spirits or inscribing mystic runes on ammo or weapons.  Ordinary dwarf runes, maybe, like a bolt with something that translates to "A present from Boatmurdered" or an edged weapon with "Have a nslice day!".

Which does not preclude ammo that has somehow been engineered to contain an ice, magma, or miasma compartment that... somehow... releases an inconveniently large/rapid amount of cold, heat or disease upon the target.  But it wouldn't be magic...


(An analogy from 40K, or at least as I understand it from frequent discussions with a friend who is into it more than I am: Orcs are psychic, but they just don't know they are.  When they paint a war kart red "to make it go faster", it does...)

[NW_Kohaku]

Actually, my favorite was that they built a golden flying ship for the gods, which was so finely crafted that it could be folded up, and fit into your pocket.

Regardless, this gets into the entire magic argument, which I've discovered isn't really worth getting into, since some people are positively opposed to anything but purely randomized magic, while I tend to argue for a more formulaic (two herbs and an empty bottle make a healing salve style) form of magic.

** To respond to a post while I was typing...

Dwarfs are magic.  They can dig out (say) 500 tiles and the best of the miners produce nearly 500 stones that can then be dumped into one of those dug-out squares while leaving it perfectly passable, while the worst of them (or a tag-team of inexperienced miners, to avoid anyone gaining too much ability) can reduce it down to a mere handful, with no problems even of dust.

But apart from that, I think of Dwarves as being implicitly magic, not explicit.  They hate the whole hand-wavy, chanting, etc, but the way that the best of them bash away at an iron bar and create an intricate quality goblet may not be entirely due to the more mundane skills.

A metal bolt that does massive damage may be due to a particularly practiced method of serrating the bolt, it could be some intricate mechanism forged within it's shaft that springs out additional barbs once it has struck and penetrated with the target (with armour-piercing bodkin head, where necessary), or it could be an imbued magic.

But you wouldn't catch them actually invoking spirits or inscribing mystic runes on ammo or weapons.  Ordinary dwarf runes, maybe, like a bolt with something that translates to "A present from Boatmurdered" or an edged weapon with "Have a nslice day!".

Which does not preclude ammo that has somehow been engineered to contain an ice, magma, or miasma compartment that... somehow... releases an inconveniently large/rapid amount of cold, heat or disease upon the target.  But it wouldn't be magic...


(An analogy from 40K, or at least as I understand it from frequent discussions with a friend who is into it more than I am: Orcs are psychic, but they just don't know they are.  When they paint a war kart red "to make it go faster", it does...)

Heh, stuff like that might lead to an argument over just what "magic" is.

I tend to dislike this notion that magic must be put to military ends that seems to be born of so many fantasy wargames.  I would rather prefer a style of magic that plays to DF's other (or perhaps, REAL) strength, which is its physics engine.  There's already something "magical" about the dwarven reactor/perpetual motion machine or lack of cave-ins so long as the "Force Of Gaia" can be channeled along a single support tile or quantum construction, but it would be nice to have a more explicitly magical method of altering the map. 

I guess what I'm saying is that it would probably be best to make dwarven "magic" be something that LOOKS like a machine, but can actually only practically work by means of abusing the laws of physics.

[Libelnon]

You know, I've had this exact discussion with a friend of mine regarding magic in the setting of the book I'm writing.

Practically, in that sense, magic requires a living component (notably the soul) of a creature, intelligent or no, to weave magic from the naturally present energy that's present across the world. So in order to enchant weapons, you can either do it temporarily, by spending 50-odd years studying the intricacies of magic and channelling this energy through your weapon, or permanently by 'teaching' the soul of a creature of any nature the pattern of runes required for the desired effect.

So magic, being overall one of the most powerful forces in the world, is mitigated by the fact you'll be an old man by the time you can use it, and enchantment is a loooong and painful process. And I'm not talking about how difficult it is for the poor soul that's going to spend eternity chanting runes stuck in some rich sod's broadsword!

So, In my opinion, it should be extremely difficult for a dwarf to 'press' magic into a weapon. Perhaps it should be a skill (like strand extractor) for more intelligent dwarves?

[culwin]

Fire arrows would be cool.  If dwarves could control fire.
Also it would be cool if you could launch vermin in catapults, creating miasma bombs for the enemy.

[NW_Kohaku]

You know, I've had this exact discussion with a friend of mine regarding magic in the setting of the book I'm writing.

Practically, in that sense, magic requires a living component (notably the soul) of a creature, intelligent or no, to weave magic from the naturally present energy that's present across the world. So in order to enchant weapons, you can either do it temporarily, by spending 50-odd years studying the intricacies of magic and channelling this energy through your weapon, or permanently by 'teaching' the soul of a creature of any nature the pattern of runes required for the desired effect.

So magic, being overall one of the most powerful forces in the world, is mitigated by the fact you'll be an old man by the time you can use it, and enchantment is a loooong and painful process. And I'm not talking about how difficult it is for the poor soul that's going to spend eternity chanting runes stuck in some rich sod's broadsword!

So, In my opinion, it should be extremely difficult for a dwarf to 'press' magic into a weapon. Perhaps it should be a skill (like strand extractor) for more intelligent dwarves?

Yes, but that's just your opinion, and again, opinions on this are fairly divided, and unlike a change to add in more advanced simulation of how an industry should work or the like, there's absolutely nothing backing these demands up besides what you or I or the other guy just happens to like most... today (because these likes can often change, at that).

I would say that I prefer a notion of magic that dwarves use to be closer to something like Alchemy - a sort of psuedo-scientific endeavor with repeatable results that can be taught and trained, and which require material components that would require some sort of supporting industry to supply, such as farm-raising certain plants or animals, because that makes the most sense to me in the terms of the way that people can interact with the game. 

What I argue against most, however, is this notion that magic should be uncontrollable and random (especially with regards to causing fires or the like), since that aggravates one of the weaknesses of this game, in that the game is basically designed to require prevention of disasters, since the lack of direct control over dwarves (with very ornery AI that tends to ignore important things like currently being on fire) makes managing a disaster is a hundred times harder than preventing it from happening in the first place. 

Fire arrows would be cool.  If dwarves could control fire.
Also it would be cool if you could launch vermin in catapults, creating miasma bombs for the enemy.

Well, we don't need "magic" per se to make "fire arrows" or "miasma bombs", we just need the ability to put extracts on weapons, and we could start modding in manufacturable "rag soaked in pitch" extracts to bolts.

This is probably quite a bit closer to happening than a magic update.

[thijser]

Well perhaps this is where traders could come in handy. Dwarfs aren't known for their special magic abilities. Elfs on the other hand are know to enchant everything from pieces of wood to drops of water and comlete forests. Of course you would need a lot to trade for such a magical item. These items cannot be produced in a dwarven fort and need elfes to make them.

[Libelnon]

Well perhaps this is where traders could come in handy. Dwarfs aren't known for their special magic abilities. Elfs on the other hand are know to enchant everything from pieces of wood to drops of water and comlete forests. Of course you would need a lot to trade for such a magical item. These items cannot be produced in a dwarven fort and need elfes to make them.

I spy an elf sympathiser. HERETIC!

[/overdorfyness]

Sounds like a good idea to me. How this is finally implemented is up to Toady in the end though, so it's his choice how magic works - or if it even exists.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well perhaps this is where traders could come in handy. Dwarfs aren't known for their special magic abilities. Elfs on the other hand are know to enchant everything from pieces of wood to drops of water and comlete forests. Of course you would need a lot to trade for such a magical item. These items cannot be produced in a dwarven fort and need elfes to make them.

Actually, I'd say that enchanting items is EXACTLY what dwarves are known for, and that elves (at least, the sort of elves DF has) are more capable of simply using "nature" to work magic, without having to craft anything per se, but rather just being able to call out to the vines to move and make staircases up to their tree houses.

That said, some special herbs that only elves can grow wouldn't be out of the question.  (Just make sure your dwarves don't start smoking them.)