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[Mfbrew]

On the topic of ancient homosexuality etc:

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a culture in human history where homosexuality as it's practiced today was ever tolerated.

What you will find are cultures where married men were allowed to engage in homosexual acts as long as they were the "pitcher" and still acted like masculine men.

Being the "catcher" and embracing effeminate behaviors have always been largely frowned upon except as a rite of passage for young males. 

[G-Flex]

What you will find are cultures where married men were allowed to engage in homosexual acts as long as they were the "pitcher" and still acted like masculine men.

Being the "catcher" and embracing effeminate behaviors have always been largely frowned upon except as a rite of passage for young males. 

Wait, how exactly can you say that it's okay to be the pitcher but not the catcher, even though being the pitcher forces someone else to be the catcher? I don't get it. It's like saying that you can sell stolen artwork, but you can't buy it.


Also, I take issue with your interpretation of gender roles and sexual orientation throughout history. It's much more complicated than what you make it sound like. Even cursory research on Wikipedia makes it pretty obvious that your obviously very Eurocentric view of this matter is not exactly correct/universal.

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

The fact of the matter is that gender identity and sexual orientation are complex things, and you cannot rely on or take for granted any ideas concerning it, from any cultural background.

[Mfbrew]

I didn't say that being a Pitcher is ok and that being a catcher isn't.  But if you look at a lot of cultures, you'll see that the latter is often the topic of light ridicule.

The china article actually supports my point that exclusive homosexuality as it's seen today was never very accepted until recently - that men were still expected to marry women while keeping open or hidden male lovers on the side.

The article doesn't address the pitcher/catcher issue, but it does mention that the ancient Chinese drew distinctions between different acts and combinations instead of lumping it into one general term.

Personally, I'm in favor of legalizing same sex marriage and strongly prosecuting hate crimes related to preference in lovers.  It's people's private business who they get involved with, and it's no threat to society.

But I also think a guy is justified in making fun of a friend who "plays the catcher" the same way he might make fun of a guy for being whipped by his girlfriend.

[de5me7]

as a religious christian i would say homophobia comes more from an 'us and them' syndrome than religion its self. religious beliefs can be used to justify/catalyse this though.

Ive shared a house with a gay couple and dont consider my self homophobic (or what ever term you wish to use). I would say the key factor amoungst peoples i know, in determining how comfortable they are with gay peoples is: 1st how much contact with gay people they have had, 2nd how insecure they are personally.

I also think its worth making a distinction between camp and gay. I easily get irritated with camp people. But camp people arnt necessarily gay.

[Nikov]

As a Christian I view it in the same light as any other form of adultery; a sin I shouldn't judge others for. If I am anti-gay its for the same reason I am anti-prostitution or anti-promiscuity.

[G-Flex]

Right, because of religious dogma.

I was under the impression this thread was about reasoning behind prejudice against homosexuals.

[kuro_suna]

As a Christian I view it in the same light as any other form of adultery; a sin I shouldn't judge others for. If I am anti-gay its for the same reason I am anti-prostitution or anti-promiscuity.

But what about homosexuals who are essentially a monogamous couple even if the state won't legally acknowledge it.

[smigenboger]

I'm sure you can be gay and abstinent, though that wouldn't be any more boring than being heterosexual and abstinent

[Jackrabbit]

As a Christian I view it in the same light as any other form of adultery; a sin I shouldn't judge others for. If I am anti-gay its for the same reason I am anti-prostitution or anti-promiscuity.

But what about homosexuals who are essentially a monogamous couple even if the state won't legally acknowledge it.

And, for that matter, what makes it a sin?

[Zangi]

As a Christian I view it in the same light as any other form of adultery; a sin I shouldn't judge others for. If I am anti-gay its for the same reason I am anti-prostitution or anti-promiscuity.

But what about homosexuals who are essentially a monogamous couple even if the state won't legally acknowledge it.

And, for that matter, what makes it a sin?

Religion

Is it distasteful to you because building one's life around any one thing is odd?

No need to rub it in my face.

[Jackrabbit]

Yeah, okay, I could have phrased that better. Like, "Is it distasteful to you because you think that building your life around any one thing is odd? And if so, why do you think that?"

I'm Catholic, just so you know I'm not trying to insult you. As for what makes it a sin, I mean, I know it's there in the Bible but I was hoping for more justification than that. I mean, Thou Shalt Not Kill is in the Bible and because murder being legal and moral would lend to a lot of deaths and be totally against our instinct of self-preservation, why would you believe it to be a sin? What other justification do you have? Basically:

Right, because of religious dogma.

I was under the impression this thread was about reasoning behind prejudice against homosexuals.

What he said.

[Phmcw]

Homosexual get a lot of hate from poeple that are homosexual and don't want to admit it.
I don't know why especially, but quite a few homohater are closet homosexual.
Else it's religious, and "how do you dare to go against tradition".

[kuro_suna]

Homosexual get a lot of hate from poeple that are homosexual and don't want to admit it.
I don't know why especially, but quite a few homohater are closet homosexual.

A lot of closet homosexuals have been suckered into the belief that sexual preference is a choice and if anyone shows homosexual tendencies its from external influences corrupting them. So I'm guessing its a combination of self hate and making it seem contagious.

[nenjin]

I don't really know where to stand on the "personal choice" versus "genetic" debate. They both have their good qualities, but they both also pose some risks. Particularly the belief that homosexuality is a genetic thing.

I've met some gays who have said "no way, it's totally a personal choice, and anyone that tells you different has an agenda about homosexuality and genetics." And then I've heard others say "No way, it's totally genetic, and anyone that tells you different is just trying to downplay people's commitment to their lifestyle, or suggest that it's easily changed."

[kuro_suna]

It doesn't have to be genetic or choice since many mental attributes are decided at birth yet not hereditary.

If homosexuality is a choice though does that mean heterosexuality is as well, I have trouble believing you can change what you find sexually attractive just by willing it.

Since homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't absolute I kinda suspect anyone who says its a choice just naturally lands in the middle for preference.