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[Zifnab]

I was more referring to the internment camps.  Those they did send quite a few Japanese Americans to as well as many German and Italian Americans. 

I think the reason people are afraid is that there is no way of looking at a muslim and telling if they are a crazy extremist or not.  So people see shadows where there are none.  When they see a muslim they think, "Is he one of the terrorists?"  And thats just what the extremists want people to do.  It makes sneaking around and doing illegal stuff a lot easier to do.

I also wouldn't underestimate fear.  The relatively small number of people killed during the 9/11 attacks caused fear that allowed the Patriot Act, one of the greatest infringements on personal liberty in the US to get passed.  You don't think that a nuke set off during say, the Super Bowl, killing well over 100,000 would have people demanding that something be done.  And the people in Congress don't bother to read anything that they pass, so who knows what kind of nonsence would get slipped in.


Back on topic with the Dutch:

Does anyone know what kind of % of the Dutch population is Islamic?  Wilders obviously thinks its too much, but are there really a lot, or is he just a big racist?  Or rather, whatever word you would use if someone doesn't hate a race, but hates a religion?  Religionist doesn't have the right sound to it.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Just call it Islamophobic.

[Zifnab]

Just call it Islamophobic.

That will have to work.

[Virex]

Does anyone know what kind of % of the Dutch population is Islamic?

Last count, in 2006, was 850.000 citizens and an estimated 1 million if you include non-citizens. Assuming a population of little over 16 million, that's roughly 6% counting non-citizens.

[Forumsdwarf]

The reason for "Islamophobia" is because a critical mass of Muslims are willing to use violence to censor and suppress opinions and speech they feel is disrespectful of their religion.

It's all well and good if you want to make the principled claim that violence and the threat of violence by one side doesn't justify its use by the other, but to pretend that pointing out Muslim violence is evidence of some kind of "phobia" or psychological disorder is pissing on the graves of all the innocent victims murdered by Islamic extremists.

[PTTG??]

There's Islamic extremists, and there's Muslims. And it is my feeling that all extremists, no matter what they claim to believe, are fundamentally the same in final goals; they want to oppress and destroy "outsiders". This does not reflect on the group as a  whole, which is by far made up of, if not good people, people who won't take specifically destructive actions.

[Zifnab]

Does anyone know what kind of % of the Dutch population is Islamic?

Last count, in 2006, was 850.000 citizens and an estimated 1 million if you include non-citizens. Assuming a population of little over 16 million, that's roughly 6% counting non-citizens.

Well, that does seem like quite a few.  And being a small country, even if very few of them are extremists willing to use violence, thats some scary stuff right there.  I'd say Wilders appears fairly reasonable.  In the very least I'd support his shutting down immigration from Islamic countries, or at least make it very difficult to do so.  I'm still fairly certain I wouldn't kick out those already there though.

There's Islamic extremists, and there's Muslims. And it is my feeling that all extremists, no matter what they claim to believe, are fundamentally the same in final goals; they want to oppress and destroy "outsiders". This does not reflect on the group as a  whole, which is by far made up of, if not good people, people who won't take specifically destructive actions.

Mind you, these good people make a good recruit pool.

Have there been any movements to bring back capitol punishment in Europe for terrorists?

[PTTG??]

Zifnab...

You most likely consider yourself a moderate Cristian or Atheist, or possibly Buddhist or other religious group.

If someone came to you and said that they where on your side, and that, for instance, Turkey was planning to attack your hometown, and the only thing for you to do is wear this explosive vest and try to detonate it in some crowded Turkish market, does it seem at all likely that you would do that?

Islam does not program people to be mindless, raving monsters. Indeed, pretty much every mainstream religion comes down to saying that everyone aught to be nice to one another- and pretty much every mainstream religion also has the kind of text that extremists will try to twist into justification, as if they needed any. Every page of a holy text will practically consist entirely of people crying out for peace and understanding, and the three paragraphs that encourage bringing vengeance upon the infidels (or maybe bringing incense upon a tray, it's hard to be sure with these translations,) get all the publicity

I firmly stand by my long-held belief that the only suitable government religious stance is a total separation of church and state- in both directions. The government never favors nor disfavors any religion. The only caveat to this being that religious behavior cannot infringe on the rights of others- which silences the critics who like to say things like "Yeah, but what about human sacrifice?"

This means that even if there was a religion that encourages a weekly ritual of human sacrifice, then the religion is not banned. The murders may be illegal, but not the belief that the Sun God XVZVXKN will devour the earth in six months isn't. The actions are separate from the belief.

[Virex]

Mind you, these good people make a good recruit pool.

The same goes for Basques and I don't see Spain getting all worked up over them as a group. Why can't we do the same here?

[Zifnab]

If someone came to you and said that they where on your side, and that, for instance, Turkey was planning to attack your hometown, and the only thing for you to do is wear this explosive vest and try to detonate it in some crowded Turkish market, does it seem at all likely that you would do that?

Not at all likely.  It makes no sense to me to attack civilians in their own territory.  Unless your goal is not to convince them to call off an invasion, but rather to either commit genocide upon their people or make them fully commit to a war against you.  Instead I would work to fortify my hometown, plant booby-traps against the invaders, and form a local militia to defend the town.

I honestly believe that the 9/11 hijackings were just that, an attempt to draw the US into a full scale war.  The USSR spent years fighting in Afghanistan and never got anywhere.  The United States are being bankrupted by the war combined with not selling war bonds, and the drastic increase in federal government spending in non-war activities.

Islam does not program people to be mindless, raving monsters. Indeed, pretty much every mainstream religion comes down to saying that everyone aught to be nice to one another- and pretty much every mainstream religion also has the kind of text that extremists will try to twist into justification, as if they needed any. Every page of a holy text will practically consist entirely of people crying out for peace and understanding, and the three paragraphs that encourage bringing vengeance upon the infidels (or maybe bringing incense upon a tray, it's hard to be sure with these translations,) get all the publicity

I firmly stand by my long-held belief that the only suitable government religious stance is a total separation of church and state- in both directions. The government never favors nor disfavors any religion. The only caveat to this being that religious behavior cannot infringe on the rights of others- which silences the critics who like to say things like "Yeah, but what about human sacrifice?"

Jesus may have been a pacifist, but Christianity used to make a lot of people into raving monsters.  Still does some places.  So does Islam.  Sure its a lot more peaceful now than it was during the time where it was being spread across the world with swords and fire, but neither Christianity nor Islam have been very peaceful over their existance.  These religions place too much on the conversion of nonbelievers to stay peaceful for very long.  Even if there isn't any physical violence going on, if you are constantly taught that the nonbelievers need to convert in order to be saved, you will look down, discriminate, and harrass them.

I agree with total seperation in theory, but it has not worked in practice.  Why are gay marraiges illegal many places?  They don't hurt anyone else.  Polygamy/polyandry among consenting adults?  Sodomy?  Sex toys are banned in Texas.  Why?  Because of the majority of Americans have been Christian, and they have inflicted the moral values of their religion on everyone else.

I consider myself a deist.  I believe their are divine being/s.  I believe in reason.  I believe blind faith is one of the scourges of human history, ranking right up there with boundless greed and hatred of everyone but your own kind.

[Siquo]

The point is that it's not all dutch. To show the irony, the above is equivalent to "what is it with those blacks and racism?".

I'm dutch, I think I remember that you are, and we both know not ALL dutch are like that.

Wow, I had honestly thought you were an American heartland type until now.

If that was sarcastic, I'm really bad at reading sarcasm. If it wasn't: SayWhat?!

Also: What PTTG?? said.

[Forumsdwarf]

There's Islamic extremists, and there's Muslims. And it is my feeling that all extremists, no matter what they claim to believe, are fundamentally the same in final goals; they want to oppress and destroy "outsiders". This does not reflect on the group as a  whole, which is by far made up of, if not good people, people who won't take specifically destructive actions.

Except that even who you're calling "Muslims", the mainstream non-extremist types, still seem to think anyone who isn't Muslim is a sub-human "outsider".

Have you ever noticed that whenever there's a terrorist attack the first thing you hear from "mainstream" Muslims is how they're the real victims because of the "racist backlash" that always seems to be coming yet never actually does?

"Never mind all those people who are actually dead; I'm the victim!  It's all about me!"  It's disgusting.

That level of self-centeredness approaches the sociopathic.  It's obscene and shameful for Muslims to portray themselves as the "real victims" before the bodies of the slain are even cold.  Every time there's a terrorist attack there's the Muslim spokesman in the obligatory interview hyperventilating about the "racist backlash" that might be nightmarishly descending on the Muslim community this time around, even though it never does -- this time might be different!  "It's a tough time to be a Muslim!"  (Yes, those exact words.  Silly me, I would've said it's a tough time to be an airline passenger ... on Flight 93.)

But there's a deeper underlying reason for their attitude: dead infidels don't matter.  All that seems to matter to Muslims -- or at least the ones who claim to speak for Muslims -- is how the deaths of a few otherwise-unimportant nobodies might affect the Muslim community.

Meanwhile here's a frank display of respect for the dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

The mentality of "us versus them" is pervasive.  Whatever its cause, whomever is to blame, the fact that it is a feature of Muslim / infidel relations is unmistakable.  Western Civilization must adapt if it is to survive.

[Siquo]

That level of self-centeredness approaches the sociopathic.

Sorry, I can't help myself, but you're displaying exactly what you're arguing against. Also, no muslim I know ever treated me as sub-human. Geert Wilders and his voters do treat Muslims as sub-human. The backlash you say doesn't exist is also very real, there have been arsonists at work at mosques, and violence against muslims in both the Netherlands and Belgium shortly after attacks.

There is no "us vs them", although you seem to like to think there is. Black and white is so much easier than grayscales. In short: you're displaying EVERYTHING you blame the muslims do.

Zoals de waard is, vertrouwt hij zijn gasten.

[Zifnab]

Have you ever noticed that whenever there's a terrorist attack the first thing you hear from "mainstream" Muslims is how they're the real victims because of the "racist backlash" that always seems to be coming yet never actually does?

"Never mind all those people who are actually dead; I'm the victim!  It's all about me!"  It's disgusting.

To be fair, its hardly "mainstream" Muslims doing this. Its usually some guy trying to portray himself as the unofficial leader of these Muslims or the guy the media needs to see if they want the real information. 

Like in the United States with Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton and black people.  There is practically nothing dealing with African-Americans that makes it to the national level that those two don't comment on.  Usually before the facts are known.  They will whip up a frenzy of racial conflict, claim the black people involved are victims of a racist society, then leave.  Often leaving the communities more torn apart than when they arrived.

The condemnation for being self centered should be reserved for those who repeatedly thrust themselves into the spotlight. 

[Toady Two]

Wilders has never stated support for the genocide of Islamic people.  Wheras time and time again Islamic extremist have said they will kill anyone who insults their religion.

Food for thought: nor did Hitler ever state his intent of genocide of the Jewish population. Officially the Jews were just being "relocated". Limiting the laws of a minority based on nationality or religion(two characteristics that are easy to distinguish people by) is generally very bad. History has proven actions like this can lead to genocide.

I think people like Geert are part of the problem. Their mindset only gives fuel to the Islamic fundamentalists that declare war on western civilization. If I were a moderate Dutch Muslim and heard about projects to limit the laws of those with Islamic faith I would reconsider what I thought about my crazy fundamentalist friends calling to take action. Its actually a never ending circle. Extremism triggers extreme anti-extremism which in turn triggers more extremism in defence. And its the tolerant moderates that suffer when caught in the crossfire.