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[ChairmanPoo]

I've taken a bit of Islamic Theology & Civilization back in uni, and I can confidently say that FGM isn't a Muslim practice. In fact, there's a huge campaign, and people dedicated to fighting it, but that never makes the news. Not many Muslim countries practice it at all, and you seem to have neglected that the Middle East and Southeast Asia don't do it.

Okay, so you assert authority, without showing any evidence.  It's almost like you're not even responding to what I have said.  Did you read it? 

He shows evidence right after saying that. It's almost like you bothered to read only the first four lines he posted.

BTW, I'd say that there is NOT a significant correlation, checking that map

[Nonsapient]

I've taken a bit of Islamic Theology & Civilization back in uni, and I can confidently say that FGM isn't a Muslim practice. In fact, there's a huge campaign, and people dedicated to fighting it, but that never makes the news. Not many Muslim countries practice it at all, and you seem to have neglected that the Middle East and Southeast Asia don't do it.

Okay, so you assert authority, without showing any evidence.  It's almost like you're not even responding to what I have said.  Did you read it? 

He shows evidence right after saying that. It's almost like you bothered to read only the first four lines he posted.

BTW, I'd say that there is NOT a significant correlation, checking that map

That evidence has nothing at all to do with FGM and women's rights, the topics I have been discussing and he replied to.

That's got to do with Geert Wilders.  I'm only talking about FGM and the status of women in Islam, sir.  I'm not that familiar with Wilders himself;  that's why I've tried to avoid commenting on his policy directly.  I AM familiar with some that support him,  and that is the direction I have been speaking from.

Oppression of women is definitely NOT a strictly Muslim issue.  It IS an issue that relates to Islam here only because of the proportion of Islam refugees/asylum seekers/immigrants is very high,  and these groups tend to also hold values incompatible with gender equality.  FGM is one of those.  Honor Killings may be another,  but I have never seen concrete statistics on that.

One cannot deny that some of the arguments against Islam are valid.  I'm just trying to point out that Gender Equality and strict interpretation of Islam and sharia are incompatible.  There are elements that cannot occur in western society without shattering peace.

At some point we have to decide that certain cultural practices are unacceptable.  Would the Sambia have been accepted with all of their cultural practices intact?  I'd like to think we'd try to stop certain elements, in order to protect the children.

Certain elements of the modern Islam CULTURE are not acceptable if we plan to keep men and women on equal footing, and reject the idea of complementarity of rights.

[Zifnab]

We decided that Mormons couldn't be polygamists here in the US.  We've decided that certain religions that have practiced child marraiges can't anymore.  Ritual sacrafice of humans, vampirism.....are these permitted because they happen to be religious/cultural practices?

[Siquo]

Certain elements of the modern Islam CULTURE are not acceptable if we plan to keep men and women on equal footing, and reject the idea of complementarity of rights.

Blabla.

The ones who fear Wilders a lot are the Christians, actually. One christian party here (SGP, with a staggering 2 seats in a 150 seat parliament) does not allow women to be active in the party. They're supposed to be at home, cooking or something. They are now being charged for violating EU rules. Nothing you said can't also be said for the "extreme" Christians, or any other religion, and that is what's wrong with Wilders' interpretation. He tries to impose "reasonable" rules on Muslims, but on Muslims only, therefore creating an inequality, as people are being treated as different, because they believe in a different God.

On the other hand, we've got a political party that has no Gender Equality, and still peace has not shattered in the Western World. Perhaps you're overreacting a bit?

Then there's the capital CULTURE you mentioned. As there are hundreds of Christian cultures, there are even more Muslim cultures. Which one do you mean? And how strict are people allowed to follow a religion? And how many of them actually do? I've had working muslim women, with and without niqab, who socialise, speak the language well, are educated, have caring families and/or husbands (who are a bit of a bore on nights out since they don't drink and my culture is an alcoholic one), and are generally not distinguishable from the natives. Do they count, too? "No, they are the exception to the rule" Well maybe, just maybe you should adjust your rule. Either to include everyone, or exclude everyone. One of the greatest things the free world has achieved is that of freedom of religion. A freedom that's about to be torn to pieces.

And you do know that "in order to protect the children" is null and void in any serious argument, as is the hollow phrase "one cannot deny" because yes, I damn well can.

[Muz]

I could say that one atheist is a serial rapist and claim that atheist culture promotes serial rape. I could say that in places where atheism is rising, divorce rates increase and birth rates drop. I could point to a few priests who molest children and claim that Christianity promotes pedophilia. Or hey, I could correlate FGM with people who have black skin and women oppression with Arabs, but that's racism. It doesn't work that way. You don't see an ethnic Somalian Muslim living in the USA cutting off his daughter's genitals.

If you want to correlate something, you have to show data for everything, not just a tiny set. FGM doesn't occur much outside of Africa, at least judging from Wikipedia's say on it. Show me data for FGM worldwide, not just Africa. And show data for women's oppression worldwide too, not just in the third world countries. Then you compare to worldwide spread of Islam. Even if you get correlation there, it doesn't imply causation, especially since you'd be ignoring all the Muslim groups who fight against that stuff. But there's already been some research that disproves either.

Sharia law isn't what Geert Wilders, the Western media, or what a few fanatical Arabs claim it is. There's not one verse in the Quran that claims or even implies that you should stone a woman to death for adultery and you're welcome to try to prove that there is. Islam places a lot of respect in women's rights and education.

You're probably right about it being less beneficent than it used to be. There's still a long way to go to fix that, and a few people inciting religious hatred isn't going to help.

[PTTG??]

I dislike anyone who's ideals can be summed up as "These people over here- this ethnicity- are the cause of all our problems. So vote for me."

What is it with the dutch and racism?

It really blows my theory out of the water. I've always held that poverty leads to ignorance, which leads to bigotry and more poverty.

But then here come the Dutch, who as far as I can tell are yet another idealistic Slavic social democracy, a model for the world, and it's teeming with skinheads.

Siquo; yeah, I know how you feel. Come to the US sometime.

I don't like extremist Islamic beliefs any more than the next guy- and I don't care for extremist Christian beliefs, either- but I do know that the vast majority of both groups are made up perfectly sane and caring people, who even at their worst are just playing along with the few deranged demagogues.

[Siquo]

What is it with the dutch and racism?

I hope the irony there is obvious 

[Virex]

What is it with the dutch and racism?

I hope the irony there is obvious 

I don't know about that. The dutch are always so full of their open-mindedness, but if you look under the surface, they score worst on emancipation and human rights for political refugees of pretty much all western countries and pretty damn bad on racial relations within the country too.

[ChairmanPoo]

since when are the dutch slavic?

[Virex]

Depends on who you're asking. Most put the line at the moment Poland joined the EU

[nenjin]

Oi, FGM, my favorite topic.

I took a Medical Anthro class back in college, and my teacher felt FGM was the perfect example of what the discipline was all about.

FGM doesn't even come close to traditional circumcision in other countries. We don't stitch guys' penises to their stomachs so they can't be used.

FGM, on the other hand, is often marked by literally sowing shut a young girl's vagina and only removing the stitches once she gets married. The incidence of sepsis, infection, and everything else is horrifyingly high.

I'm all for respect for traditional customs, and even the fact FGM is practiced partly as a response to the high incidence of rape and AIDS in African countries. But in the civilized world, traditional customs have to preserve the life, health and happiness of the individual for the most part. FGM often fails to meet that criteria. Circumcision it ain't.

[ChairmanPoo]

dude, I dont think that anyone is defending female circumcision.

[nenjin]

Sorry, someone popped in with the traditional circumcision defense, and I had to spout off.

Even calling it female circumcision is kind of missing half the picture. Cutting/scarring the labia comes with its own set of problems and risks, particularly because it's often not done at birth...but at sexual maturity.

[Forumsdwarf]

He fails to grasp the concept of "Nie wieder".

On the contrary, after what happened to Theo van Gogh I think Mr. Wilders is one of the few Europeans who truly apprehends "Nie Wieder".  Although he may not have been acceptable in a less dangerous political era, like Winston Churchill Geert Wilders is the right man for the times.

If "Nie Wieder" doesn't apply to artists what is the point?  Theo van Gogh has fallen, but the fight for our brave artists and the artistic freedom for which they stand goes on.  Nie Wieder.

Salman Rushdie lives.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali lives.
Kurt Westergaard lives.
Matt Stone lives.
Trey Parker lives.
Molly Norris lives.

Nie Wieder.  For Theo, Nie Wieder.

[Zifnab]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7668606/Times-Square-car-bomb-police-investigate-South-Park-link.html

For Matt and Trey.  Nie Wieder.

Maybe the bomber was really a Scientologist plant.  Islamic extremists aren't the only ones out there who like to terrorize nonbelievers.